The Vamos Albiceleste thread v2.0 **SPOILERS** [Archive] - Page 2

R9magia

05-09-2006, 09:23 PM

mate there's no reason to get all wound up over any of this..I see that edit time and there's no use losing sleep over something so inconsequential!
I saw dunga's strategy as defensive from the get-go..a sort of lie in wait strategy similar in many ways to the way parreira played us in that famous 3 penalty game
the first goal comes from a recovery of a defensive clearance (after we had sustained offensive possession) badly headed into the middle by one of our defenders (mistake), which leads to two passes and a goal on the break
that's a counterattack goal
it's just as biased and spiteful to use a highly uncharacteristic display by us (to put it lightly) after two days of training and a scoreline that was highly flattering to somehow translate that to complete superiority and domination
if we had won, or if we beat england, italy, france, etc in a similar way with them just putting on a dismal display I would be happy, sure, but mindful that the game could have gone very differently and will likely go differently the next time
Eh..You obviously have trouble understanding my points so I won't bother any further on the subject. You keep getting my points wrong asking me if I'm suggesting the win "somehow translates to complete superiority and domination" when that's clearly not what I said.

It bothered me that some of you can't accept a loss and have to say things like the win was "flukey" or that you "only had two days of training". Basically at the same time you say "I accept defeat" you make excuses in the next sentence.

As for your counter-attack claim on the first goal, you obviously didn't watch the link I posted. It wasn't a defensive clearance, Gomes (the GK) had the ball in possession and played it long. Argentina was completely set defensively with 9-10 players back. It was took two passes because A) Robinho owned you and B) Your defense on that play was disgraceful. There is no way that goal can ever be called counter-attack and if you don't see this...well...what else can I say.

Oh, and the edit time was because I was watching the match again and realized the 1st goal was not a counter-attack so I came back, added a link and asked you to watch it again and explain how it was a counter. No offence, but I wouldn't spend 2 hours writing to you about something this trivial :rolleyes:

west501

06-09-2006, 01:49 AM

No offence, but I wouldn't spend 2 hours writing to you about something this trivial :rolleyes:

well that's good to hear
I reject the idea that I can't dually accept the loss and brush it off as uncharacteristic
we played some good football and deserved a better result
more than anything I'm sad for agüero's ruined debut..but he'll have his revenge :D
I can't wait until next time

chauchey

06-09-2006, 01:49 AM

well, i just watched the game. I felt that Brasil fielded a better defence than Argentina did, and it made all the difference. Especially on the second goal, when our defence was looking like the perverbial chicken with its head cut off. They all went to the ball carrier, leaving the scorer open.

I also didnt like the fact that our forwards had problems completeing chances on an admittedly stingy brasilian defence. We did have chances, we should have scored, but we didnt. Zabaletta missed a glorious chance, and messi missed a great header opportunity, and Tevez elected to pass, on a play which apon revue, might have been better to shoot on.

The other thing i'd like to say, is Kaka...is really fast. He outran Messi...which i havent seen done before i dont think...at least not left behind like that. :eek: wow.

R9magia

06-09-2006, 01:58 AM

well that's good to hear
I reject the idea that I can't dually accept the loss and brush it off as uncharacteristic
we played some good football and deserved a better result
more than anything I'm sad for agüero's ruined debut..but he'll have his revenge :D
I can't wait until next time
Another Copa América maybe? That would be an ideal situation :D

The other thing i'd like to say, is Kaka...is really fast. He outran Messi...which i havent seen done before i dont think...at least not left behind like that. :eek: wow.
He really doesn't look that fast, it just looks like he's kinda gliding but before you know it he's passed a bunch of defenders. And I couldn't believe the play on the last goal...He outran Messi.....running with the ball :eek:

http://forums.beyondunreal.com/images/smileys/eek2.gif

west501

06-09-2006, 02:09 AM

The other thing i'd like to say, is Kaka...is really fast. He outran Messi...which i havent seen done before i dont think...at least not left behind like that. :eek: wow.

kaká is a brilliant player, definitely my favourite brazilian of the moment (well besides 'dinho of course)
he's fun to watch and I honestly don't care as much when he scores on us than when someone else does..especially when it's a goal like that

for messi's defence, kaká had come on about 20 minutes before that play while messi had run all over the pitch (literally) for the whole match in a superhuman effort..messi showed mascherano like tenacity which is very promising
under equal conditions messi is probably faster based on his unreal acceleration, but yeah kaká is deceptively fast for someone of his stature

Vip

06-09-2006, 08:47 PM

Here is a funny interview with Abel Balbo ... thought you guys would like to read it (http://www.ole.clarin.com/jsp/v4/pagina.jsp?pagId=1266333&fecha=20060906). :p

Edit: 09-08-06

A few things that heard this morning on La Red ... coming from an interview with Basile last nite in Minuto 90 after the Recopa game.

First, he said that no local players will be called until early next year ... when he will have time to schedule work with the local players Mon-Wed thru out the semester. But he knows that some players will have Libertadores games ... so he needs to plan. He said he needs to work with them to form a cohesive team.

Secondly, for Basile, Riquelme would grow in his game with a DM like Gago. But he was clear to say that he doesn't "marry" with anyone. That he will try other players in the position and will gradually find the right players to have the team play like he likes.

He was asked if Messi was trying to do "too much" to compensate what he missed in hte WC ... he said that that was part of it, and that Messi was really down after the game. He talked to him ... "he is a kid".

All this was the first time we heard Basile speak about the NT after the defeat, in which he clears out all the speculation regarding future call-ups.

.

.

akd

11-09-2006, 08:23 AM

River

14-09-2006, 01:33 AM

Woo!! Riquelme has decided to retire from international football, and will no longer be part of our National Team.. Thank god! :) He was way too slow, didn't do shit, and was highly overrated..

Now let's hope that Aimar and D'Alessandro get their chances. :cool:

perfectdark

14-09-2006, 01:56 AM

:( this is depressing.

west501

14-09-2006, 03:12 AM

:( this is depressing.

as sad as I am to see riquelme go, it's for the football he could have given rather than for the football he's been playing lately
he seemed destined to become the new verón, only he's much less self-centred and an all around superior person/player
but it really was not working and he rightfully chose to end something that was going to be really taxing for him, his mother, and not to mention the rest of argentina
riquelme was being misused..you don't build around him, you build without him and let him naturally take control sometimes
he can produce the most sublime football in the world when he's at his best, but you can't go for all or nothing, especially with a player with such a complicated temperament..go for nothing and get everything

I see some opportunities coming out of this because román was not playing well and we have somewhat of a lack of open positions on this team as it is
river rightly points out that it might be time to get a much matured d'alessandro and aimar in there to round out a luxurious midfield
also, I think that if, and this is really an if here, we can build a winning side without him and he continues to mature at club level that he could add a lot to an already functioning team perhaps as a sub in the next world cup
I thought we were certainly through to the semifinal in '06 and that that was going to be riquelme's game..he was going to tear the italians a new one on the way to the final
he may yet get his revenge

perfectdark

14-09-2006, 03:38 AM

I understand exactly what you are saying. there was just huge pressure on Riquelme, and he is not the type to play in such conditions.

I guess it is time for other playmaker to step up. but I have no clue who would fit there instead of roman.

River

14-09-2006, 04:23 AM

for other playmaker to step up. but I have no clue who would fit there instead of roman.

Let me give you a clue:

It starts with a "D" ends with an "O", and has "Alessandr" in the middle. :cool:

deviant

14-09-2006, 04:27 AM

Let me give you a clue:

It starts with a "D" ends with an "O", and has "Alessandr" in the middle. :cool:
I'll give you a better one his last name begins and ends with the first 2 letters in ARGENTINA

River

14-09-2006, 04:33 AM

I'll give you a better one his last name begins and ends with the first 2 letters in ARGENTINA
Of course.. D'Alessandro and Aimar are the best #10s Argentina has produced in a loooong time... Aguante el Payaso y el Cabezon! :)

akd

14-09-2006, 05:35 AM

Maybe Messi could be our new #10? He is the closest thing to Maradona I've seen so far...

west501

14-09-2006, 05:41 AM

tévez-crespo
d'alessandro-aimar-messi
mascherano
clemente-heinze-ayala-zanetti
ustari

thinking about formations, this is an immediate possibility
we absolutely need a target man and those who would detract from that overly offensive midfield should consider messi's defensive efforts playing from attack on barça and d'alessandro's surprising discipline as of late
youngsters need to be phased in, except ustari who is clearly ready for senior team action
I think the 3 'old guys' there have at least 2 good years left, especially crespo..no need to stop now cos he's as deadly as ever
though we should think about phasing in d.milito, cavenaghi into a role that we don't have very many options to fill for 2010
in defence we have a good crop of players like gonzalo, burdisso, coloccini, and g.milito rising in status

chauchey

14-09-2006, 06:11 AM

west501

14-09-2006, 06:34 AM

i'm going to be honest, i dont feel coloccini will become a defenceman that can shut down the oppositions best when playing teams in the legitimate top 5 in the world.

Burdisso i have confidence in. If ayala can play like cafu has, we'll have him for another 3-4 years. G.milito, i havent decided on yet.

Crespo i think, considering how little he's played in the last 3 years(1.5 seasons of play it seems) can probably play for another 2 years.

does anyone feel that size could be an issue for the team that will go to the next WC in 2010?

ayala and zanetti are legends and will be unbelievably difficult to replace
we just have to get used to the idea that we will no longer have superstars in those positions and that we just need a tactically sound defensive system
a lot of this has to do with consistency and confidence, which is why I feel we should keep the veteran/understudy dichotomy going as long as we can
they probably won't make it to the next world cup, but they can teach the others a hell of a lot before then if we chose to let them
I have faith in coloccini and milito's ability to wedge a place for themselves in the defence cos the position (I played libero for a number of years) ultimately depends less on individual skill and more on cooperation amongst teammates, particularly 'the central duo,' than the offensive positions
the improvised defence the other day almost single-handedly cost us the game! (while brazil's was much more effective)

west501

14-09-2006, 06:44 AM

chin up lads, we've still got this photogenic sensation in our ranks!
http://www.ole.clarin.com/diario/2006/09/14/fotos/f029ch02.jpg

this is avatar or sig-worthy stuff

chauchey

14-09-2006, 08:07 AM

lol...the second time i've seen that photo today. :p Crazy lookin hair! :eek:

I would love to see Ayala and Zanetti, and Sorin as well, sit down in the summers and hold a 2 week "Study camp" for the defence. I know this is alot to ask, but I think it would be a good thing. Put a 'resort' spin on it or something, make it a little more relaxed than a work atmosphere. But man, we need some good thinkers out there, if we arent going to be able to substitute those positions with sheer talent.

I play defence in ice hockey, so i have an inkling of what goes into the postion. And yes, when i have a sound defencive partner, the game really seems to open up. :D

Vip

14-09-2006, 02:39 PM

Of course.. D'Alessandro and Aimar are the best #10s Argentina has produced in a loooong time... Aguante el Payaso y el Cabezon! :)

I just hope you are right. :rolleyes: Haven't seen any of the two take on the best DMs in the game yet, not to say 2 at a time glued to their shadow. It will be their time to shine or be dropped out without a chance to retire from the NT on their own.

.

dimz

14-09-2006, 04:19 PM

I think Aimar should be the one to step up now, he's definitely more talented than D'Allesandro. The formation should be like this for the years to come (midfield and forwards only)

---------------Crespo--------------
Tevez----------------------Messi
-------------Aimar-----------------

----------Gago-------Masche-------

capo

14-09-2006, 05:09 PM

Riquelme what a class act!!! Just wish 06 was his second World Cup…things could have been different. Man oh man, if only Aimar had half of Riquelme’s class eh?!?! But who am I kidding…gallina with class – a rare breed. His only good year in Europe was during Benitez “era”, now he’s not wanted or needed by any of the well respected European clubs, why is he still wearing camiseta albeceleste is beyond me. I would take D’Alessandro over him any day of the week and give Messi #10, it’s time to go into another gear!!!

------------D.Milito/Saviola------------Palacio/Aguero

Tevez/D'Ale/Sorin-------------Messi/Insua/Aimar*-------------Lucho/Maxi

*Just because I don't see him stepping out or being dropped right away.

dimz

14-09-2006, 08:31 PM

capo

14-09-2006, 10:33 PM

Ur a blind man. Aimar has Gallons more talent than D'Allesandro. I'm sure majority would agree with me.
Talent has very little to do with performances...you can have all the talent in the world and you still could stink it up on the pitch. Reality is Aimar didn't live up to the epectations and some people still hold on to the past memories of him. D'Alessandro is versatile, can play pretty much any position in the midfield and a player who gets back to defend. When playing for Argentina, D'Ale in my opinion was very effective, while Aimar couldn't even get us past the group stages in 02...again it's not about the talent - it's what a player can do for the team.

River

14-09-2006, 11:37 PM

Ur a blind man. Aimar has Gallons more talent than D'Allesandro. I'm sure majority would agree with me.

i've opened a nice new discussion thread for this.....:)
As mentioned before, I love Aimar, and the guy is full of talent, but did you not see D'Alessandro during his River era in around 2003? The guy, literally, produced magic.. I haven't seen anything like what he did in River this whole century (minimum).. And it wasn't once or twice, it was every single game.. Amazing player.. People like me, who watched every River game while he played with our jersey, know what I'm talking about.. Damn, wish I could have recorded them to show you..

And, in my opinion, he did pretty good while he was with the NT.. People forget how he did, since it was such a long time ago, but he never actually did anything wrong to deserve to be kicked out.. He didn't play as good as in River, but he still did well.. Not to mention the Argentina U-20 team.. Sure, that's different, but he was amazing there too..

R9magia

15-09-2006, 06:08 AM

http://www.ole.clarin.com/diario/2006/09/14/fotos/f029ch02.jpg

this is avatar or sig-worthy stuff

:eek: ...Have to agree...Ok...only for a few days :p

chauchey

15-09-2006, 08:01 AM

if dallessandro continues to play like he did in the last real zaragoza match, i look for him to be on the NT very soon. I wouldnt keep him out.

west501

23-09-2006, 03:23 PM

wednesday the 11th of october we visit spain in murcia
spain has an all important match against sweden the saturday before the friendly, but it should still be a great game
I hope we some aimar, d'alessandro, ayala, and heinze in there
it would also be a great time to get zanetti in there though I have the feeling he's gonna try with 'el negro' ibarra :mad:

chauchey

23-09-2006, 08:17 PM

nice! i'll be watching! :D I'd like to see some chemistry develop, and some really fast playmakers show up to play. That SBM vs Arg WC match is still fresh in my mind... :rolleyes: ahh the good 'ol days... :D

River

26-09-2006, 04:27 AM

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/locoxriver/riquelme.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/locoxriver/riquelme2.jpg

west501

27-09-2006, 02:09 AM

la 2a lista de basile (http://www.ole.clarin.com/jsp/v4/pagina.jsp?pagId=1278744&fecha=20060926)
GK: pato, franco
DF: AYALA, HEINZE, coloccini, g.milito, zabaleta, ponzio, arruabarrena
MF: maxi, AIMAR, lucho, masche, bilos, somoza, insúa
FW: CRESPO, SAVIOLA, messi, tévez, agüero

notable inclusions listed above in caps
notable exclusions listed here in caps: D'ALESSANDRO, ZANETTI

the following is what I'd like to see on 11/10

franco
zabaleta-ayala(c)-heinze-arruabarrena
masche
maxi-aimar-messi
tévez-crespo

despite the blatant ode to boca, I always liked vasco arruabarrena as a classy, efficient, and stable left back and think this is an interesting choice
maxi has to be in and I think it would be interesting to see him, aimar, and messi play interchangeably..they would have to come up with this on the pitch cos basile probably doesn't have such a deep tactical understanding
in the front it has to be crespo and I'd give tévez a chance to distract himself from west ham's mediocrity..though I'd love to see more of agüero as well
I'm excited about this game..our defensive problems should be fixed with an veteran duo in the middle and a target man will also help improve our finishing

malicia

27-09-2006, 03:10 AM

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/locoxriver/riquelme.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/locoxriver/riquelme2.jpg

puta pero que fuerte. no ma :mad: ni chistoso ni verdad.
how can people turn like that on a player who has done so much for the camiseta?

chauchey

27-09-2006, 04:10 AM

this is getting me very excited!! what a lineup! maxi's in there, which is really nice to see. aguero should sit for a bit longer. I think even messi should be subbed on later in games, 65-70 minute markers, not before then.

I'd like to see saviola and Crespo again. good combo.

River

27-09-2006, 04:43 AM

puta pero que fuerte. no ma :mad: ni chistoso ni verdad.
how can people turn like that on a player who has done so much for the camiseta?

"Ni chistoso ni verdad"? En serio me estas diciendo eso??

Yeah, he's done so much for the camiseta.. :rolleyes: He didn't do shit.. And I'm not saying he's a bad player.. He played great in Boca and in Villarreal, but has never done so for the NT...

As for the afiches, the one I like most is the one that says "Gracias por la alegria que nos da ver tu rostro cada vez que te enfoca una camara, da gusto ver como gozas del futbol que jugas" :p .. It's funny and 100% true.. Siempre tiene una cara de culo.. Even my grandmother, who doesn't watch too much soccer, told me "I can't stand Argentina's #10.. He always has this face as if something had happened to him."

chauchey

27-09-2006, 05:15 AM

he took the game pretty seriously. the stress showed. i felt the same way about him, as if he had a great and terrible burden on him, which he did. That might be why he's done so well at Villa, is because its a much smaller focus. crazy that a town of 44k, can have a team in the semifinals of the CL.

He hasnt produced for the NT, at least not championships...but he has played well.

malicia

27-09-2006, 01:49 PM

As for the afiches, the one I like most is the one that says "Gracias por la alegria que nos da ver tu rostro cada vez que te enfoca una camara, da gusto ver como gozas del futbol que jugas" :p .. It's funny and 100% true..

Ok, tienes razon por lo menos en esto, siempre tiene cara de burro y no sabe festejar. Y tal vez unos otros. Pero the thing is that I don't think he's played THAT badly. He does seem like one of those guys who when people put too much pressure on him, he doesn't do well.

Strange thing is if you compare it to Italy, he's much more like Pirlo, but people don't really pressure Pirlo or expect him to be the savior of the team. He quietly gets on with it. And I've talked to a lot of people who don't rate Pirlo highly because they don't really watch the play in the midfield, they're goal sluts. I think that of some (not all) people who criticize Riquelme.
Anyway, it just seemed far too harsh to me and reflects unreasonable expectations.

west501

27-09-2006, 01:56 PM

copa america begins to take a local/boca shape:
"Next year I'm going to assemble a local side to work day by day with the players two or three times a week. And for the Copa America I'm going to take a team from here with a few guys from Europe who will make a difference"
he says he has a few names in mind, and ole mentions a few: El Cata Díaz, Gago, Palacio, Belluschi, Montenegro
possibly Denis, Castromán
surprises? Palermo, Verón
[source (http://www.ole.clarin.com/jsp/v4/pagina.jsp?pagId=1279240&fecha=20060927)]

all I can say is if palermo goes to copa america again I will root for uruguay :mad:

dimz

27-09-2006, 04:48 PM

all I can say is if palermo goes to copa america again I will root for uruguay :mad:

Y would u do that? I agree he doesn't deserve to go based on his qualities right now, but y change allegiance?

I can't understand everything in teh article about the selection of players. Is Palacio not there because of the club season with Boca?

chauchey

27-09-2006, 06:12 PM

i'd expect him to bring the best players, when he can. If you're playing a team you know you can beat with a B team, then sure(if you're willing to take that chance). But to the copa america? the accuall tourney? a b team? give me a break. you take a WC caliber squad imo!!

west501

27-09-2006, 06:21 PM

Y would u do that? I agree he doesn't deserve to go based on his qualities right now, but y change allegiance?

I can't understand everything in teh article about the selection of players. Is Palacio not there because of the club season with Boca?

I was exaggerating :p
in all seriousness, palermo is one of the worst strikers in the history of the argentine national team
in much the same way as with pato, the national team shirt is too large for him
team bias aside, the way I see it the only player on boca who is 'seleccionable' is palacio cos he's a truly classy player
if there was one other it would be delgado, but he retired a few years ago didn't he?
gago needs far more experience before a callup
diaz and ibarra are far below the international level and like with palermo it would be a joke to call them up

and yes, the reason local players aren't being called is cos the local tournament is uninterrupted by the euro qualifying dates

malicia

27-09-2006, 09:19 PM

I was exaggerating :p
in all seriousness, palermo is one of the worst strikers in the history of the argentine national team
in much the same way as with pato, the national team shirt is too large for him
team bias aside, the way I see it the only player on boca who is 'seleccionable' is palacio cos he's a truly classy player

gago needs far more experience before a callup

now that Palacio has stopped spitting on people maybe we can call him classy :p
I think it's time to try Gago. That's part of the point of these games too. Give him a callup and maybe use him.
And really, Pato's time is just up. The WC should have been his last hurrah.

The callup list for the Euro friendly looks exciting, but why is D'Alessandro left off? :confused:

chauchey

27-09-2006, 11:14 PM

And really, Pato's time is just up. The WC should have been his last hurrah.

The callup list for the Euro friendly looks exciting, but why is D'Alessandro left off? :confused:about d'alessandro, probably because he wants to see him a while longer, and theres other players he wants to give a chance to. I think Besile has an exit strategy in mind for Pato, but i dout its anytime soon. Goalies mature slower, and it takes alot of mental fortitude to be one. The next generation should take over when they show the mental fortititude to handel the pressure, preferabely on the club level(playing for a major club, or in major competition, and winning). IMO, not before then.

west501

27-09-2006, 11:44 PM

it seems he's chosen insúa/bilos over d'alessandro
give each of them half of a season at their new clubs and basile should see the glaring reality that d'alessandro deserves the spot

as for gago he is a pretty smart player but lacks the physicality of mascherano and somoza
if you're judging him on his ability to initiate upfield play he probably trumps those two, but not by enough..plus he has cambiasso and lucho to compete with in that category
but I agree he has more prospects than a couple of the others

I know he had a great time there, but basile needs to let go of boca and the idea that he can succeed at the international level with the group of players he had there
it's a crime to forego the kind of talent we have available for each position to put in his personal favourites
it's capricious and particularly infuriating to anyone who isn't a boca fan

west501

01-10-2006, 08:26 PM

heinze and crespo injured (http://www.ole.clarin.com/jsp/v4/pagina.jsp?pagId=1282094&fecha=20061001) (attention: SPOILERS in the article)
what a crap weekend for argentine football!
the importance of this game is beginning to dawn on me
these guys [spain] aren't coming with a b-team and indeed their a-team have been quite successful under aragonés and were unlucky not to have gotten further in the world cup
it will be very difficult to get a result against spain in spain, but after a result against brazil that was as embarrassing as unlucky we need a win

chauchey

04-10-2006, 10:37 PM

does anyone know if this game is going to be posted?

akd

11-10-2006, 10:04 PM

This game sucked majorly for us!!! What the fvck is "Pocho Frio" doing in our NT?? He was a ghost throughout the whole game. Tevez could not connect a single pass and lost a lot of balls on possession. Bilos should try out as a race horse, all he does is run like crazy down the line. There was absolutely no midfield, no one to feed the ball to our forwards. The only one in our team who had a good game was Messi, but he was too alone and had no one to accompany him. Next time we should start Aguero and Messi as well as Aimar.

west501

12-10-2006, 12:35 AM

is there going to be a next time?
basile seems to be bent on using a local-based squad for copa america and world cup qualifiers starting in 07
belluschi, higuaín, palacio and gago are likely gone by next summer..any ideas as to who he'll pick?
basile had a lot to prove to me from the beginning, now he has dug his grave for me
messi is a great guy to build a team around..I think he should start trying

malicia

12-10-2006, 02:56 AM

basile had a lot to prove to me from the beginning, now he has dug his grave for me
messi is a great guy to build a team around..I think he should start trying

worth watching? i guess aragones must be happy. his ass was on the line last week.

aimar wasn't in? i'm just confused these days.

west501

12-10-2006, 12:01 PM

worth watching? i guess aragones must be happy. his ass was on the line last week.

aimar wasn't in? i'm just confused these days.

it's worth watching, yeah
but they were worse than against brazil..and judging by what the brazilians did to us with their b-team, if spain hadn't been a team in crisis things could have been a lot worse
at least against brazil we probably deserved our first goal before they deserved a second (or third)
you couldn't say as much for us in this game, no clear cut periods of domination, not even a hint of the kind of positive football we produced against brazil
weak in every aspect of the game
what do you call a team that's beaten by a team in crisis?
this could be post-románic stress, but you don't alleviate that with federico insúa
ahhh

malicia

12-10-2006, 01:53 PM

what do you call a team that's beaten by a team in crisis?

this could be post-románic stress, but you don't alleviate that with federico insúa
ahhh

I was going to make some snarky Bush-Iraq comment on the first question :p

LOL the last statement, I guess I should feel depressed. But friendlies are where you try to work things out since they don't really count for much. Still, Pocho :confused:
Basile is a good DT though. And given how much of the strategy was built around Roman, it's going to take some time. I bet some Spainiards are really hating Argentina now though. Instead of the final nail in the coffin...

west501

13-10-2006, 04:29 AM

I was going to make some snarky Bush-Iraq comment on the first question :p

LOL the last statement, I guess I should feel depressed. But friendlies are where you try to work things out since they don't really count for much. Still, Pocho :confused:
Basile is a good DT though. And given how much of the strategy was built around Roman, it's going to take some time. I bet some Spainiards are really hating Argentina now though. Instead of the final nail in the coffin...

all that needs mention is bush: on football (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12675510/)..it really encapsulates the man and his knowledge of the world quite well

I have no doubt we'll play better under basile..cos there is nowhere to go but up
it will be interesting to see some of the big names be forced to win back their spot, especially if he can reincorporate them into a winning team
we need to win the copa america after over a decade of frustration

chauchey

14-10-2006, 09:55 AM

Does anyone else think that so many short players up front might be a problem? I'd personally like to see Milito get a shot.

varun

15-10-2006, 05:15 AM

it's worth watching, yeah
but they were worse than against brazil..and judging by what the brazilians did to us with their b-team, if spain hadn't been a team in crisis things could have been a lot worse
at least against brazil we probably deserved our first goal before they deserved a second (or third)
you couldn't say as much for us in this game, no clear cut periods of domination, not even a hint of the kind of positive football we produced against brazil
weak in every aspect of the game
what do you call a team that's beaten by a team in crisis?
this could be post-románic stress, but you don't alleviate that with federico insúa
ahhh
hmm a very valid and interesting point..........you know what, you sound very familiar ;) :)

west501

15-10-2006, 05:20 PM

hmm a very valid and interesting point..........you know what, you sound very familiar ;) :)

did I inadvertently quote president bush or emperor palpatine or something? :confused:

and because I can seemingly do anything but work right now I'm going to go ahead and translate this hilarious article (http://www.ole.clarin.com/jsp/v4/pagina.jsp?pagId=01291556&fecha=20061016) for all to enjoy
man, this is some funny stuff

Don't comb your hair...

http://www.ole.clarin.com/diario/2006/10/16/um/barcelona_van-gal.jpg
ENEMY. The Dutchman smiled for the picture
and then claimed he hadn't asked for Román.

... because you're not in the picture: the Dutchman Louis Van Gaal autosuggested himself to coach the Argentine national team when his current contract with a Dutch team is through in 2008. Oh yeah? Imagine Basile when he finds out?

Coco Basile has barely begun his cycle and he has a competitor, though we would say not a very serious one. Louis Van Gaal, ex Ajax and Barcelona and currently with the Dutch AZ Alkmaar revealed today that when his contract is up in 2008, he aspires to take the helm of a 'big national team,' especially 'España or Argentina,' with the objective of 'winning a championship.'

The Dutchman, in an interview with Catalunya Radio, said he has 'the ambition to coach Argentina or Spain, or a big national team, because at club level I've won it all and after 2008 I would like to be in charge of a team capable of winning the World Cup.' We'll have to see if any big team that wants him as a coach.

Van Gaal, the same one who hung Riquelme to dry on Barça, doesn't seem to realise he'll first have to win over 40 million argentines, starting with Don Julius Grondona, and such a possibility these days seems more difficult than getting the key in the lock after having downed 80 whiskeys. [It should be noted that in Argentina the keys used are still like the one on the left (http://www.engr.uiuc.edu/international-StudentExperience/SouthAmericaExperience/ArgentinaExperience/Wilson_Argentina_SU03/images/keys.jpg) and it's sometimes harder when not drunk! :p]

In the interview Van Gaal also stated his desire to train 'an African team,' or even Brazil or England, 'who are not playing well lately.' He said he's convinced that he'd be great for the Spanish national team 'because I strongly believe in the collaboration between coach and player.' Luis Aragonés, couldn't be happier.

'Spain can win championships. Other sides, like Bulgaria for example, can't,' added Van Gaal. Reaction to his declarations in the peninsula are as of yet unknown. But we'll confess that in the offices of olé.com.ar the news caused an erruption of laughter. As the cliché says: don't comb your hair because you're not in the picture. Or also: don't pull your socks up, it's a skin shot.

after a downward spiral over the last 7 years, who does he think he's going to fool? he totally burned himself with bulgaria too! that was probably his best chance! :p

cavenaghi

09-11-2006, 03:35 PM

Teenage striker Higuain earns France call-up

PARIS, Nov 9 (Reuters) - Teenage striker Gonzalo Higuain was called up by France coach Raymond Domenech on Thursday for a friendly international against Greece next week.
Higuain, 18, who plays for River Plate in Argentina, was born in France and has Argentinian parents. He is a French national but does not speak French.
A highly promising player, Higuain is already being compared in France to another French forward with an Argentinian father, David Trezeguet, who was not on the 24-man list unveiled by Domenech for next Wednesday's match at the Stade de France.
Domenech said Juventus forward Trezeguet, who could have helped Higuain feel at home, needed a break.
Higuain's father, Jorge, played professional club football in France for Brest, where Gonzalo, who will turn 19 next month, was born in 1987. He was only 10 months old when he moved to Argentina with his family and has lived there ever since.
A striker with playmaking skills, the gifted teenager has played 30 matches for River Plate, scoring 13 goals.
"He's French and he has let us now that he was available," said Domenech, who has seen Higuain play only on tapes and has not spoken to him yet.
"He's an option. We will see whether he plays or not but in any case, he will taste the atmosphere of the team."
Domenech said the fact that Wednesday's match was a friendly meant Higuain would still be able to play for Argentina in the future.
By including him in his list, however, the France coach made clear he would prefer him to opt for France.

UNCAPPED TEENAGER

Higuain was listed as a midfielder on Domenech's list, which featured another uncapped teenager in Olympique Lyon forward Karim Benzema.
Also 18, Benzema was a France under-21 international. He has scored seven goals in 16 matches for the French champions and Ligue 1 leaders this season.
"We're building for the future and already thinking about what the team will look like one or two years from now," Domenech said.

Not really a surprise but now that's official. Still, as this is a friendly game, he will still be able to play for Argentina if he decide to.
What is hard to understand is why Domenech didn't take Trezeguet for this game. After chosing him so many times without making him play, at least this time he had something to do during these few days with the french team: be a guide and a translator for Pipita. What a silly decision! Injured or not, it doesn't matter for this kind of task :confused:
Anyway, that's bad news for Argentina. Even if it still can change and even if many argentinians have changed their nationality since football exists, it's bad news cause it is very rare to see such a young player doing it. And considering that almost all the people in argentina can easily claim to have another nationality (and considering the economical situation), it could give ideas to a bunch of young hopes. Pipita has opened the door, let's hope not so many people will follow him. And he has still the power to close it by himself...

west501

10-11-2006, 04:08 AM

18 year-old future french international higuaín

if you look over here (http://fbtz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=539468#post539468) you'll see that I called it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1M1Do7-B1o) :o
I believe this match is fifa sanctioned and the callup is thus definitive
what a tricky situation for an 18 year-old..you want to go play in europe so you keep your otherwise incidental french nationality for marketability, but you're so damned good that you're being called up by the world cup finalist, giving you a chance to play alongside some of the world's best
I saw an interview where he strongly hinted he'd deny the callup if it happened, but now that it has happened it throws a whole new dynamic into the decision-making process
here's how I would go about it:
keeping french nationality was really just in case he couldn't make it to europe on his own merits
at this point, I don't think giving it up will somehow stop european sides from wanting him or even greatly affect his price
at the base of it will be whether or not he thinks he will have the chance to become a mainstay in an aging french side or an argentine side that has wonderkids like palacio, messi, agüero, & tévez competing for the same position
as it stands, basile has said he wants to select a mainly national-based side for copa america starting in 2007, so I think higuaín's chances of playing for argentina very soon are high and that he'll still go to europe and that he should definitely deny france

cavenaghi

10-11-2006, 09:30 AM

I believe this match is fifa sanctioned and the callup is thus definitive
Wrong:
"Any player who has already represented one association in a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition of any category or any type of football may not play an international match for a representative team of another association."
"Official matches: matches played in the framework of organised football, such as national league championships, national cups and international championships for clubs, but not including friendly and trial matches."
So even if he plays against Greece, he will still be elligible for Argentina. He can even play for France against... Argentina :eek: next febuary, and then play for Argentina!
Pipita will say on monday what is his decision. Maybe not his finale decision but just concerning this match.
Of course he should deny France but only for one reason: he's not french! No matter what is written on his passport, he's argentine. Trezeguet was in the same case but at least he finished his football education in France and played several seasons in the french league before being called. He was living in france and knew french society. Higuain don't even know what is a baguette! :D
And once again he could be an example for many young argentinians. So let's hope he will take the right decision. Or let's say his father will take the right decision. Now that big european clubs are knocking on his door, his goal is achieved. The nationality case was also intended to give his son a little bit more of publicity. And it worked. Plus if Higuain choose the Argentine side, people will be proud of him for denying the second best team in the world. Yeah right! :rolleyes:
This case is pathetic really and should already be closed.

west501

10-11-2006, 11:17 AM

you're right..I was going by what they said on fox sports noticias the other day but the new article (http://www.ole.clarin.com/jsp/v4/pagina.jsp?pagId=01306412&fecha=20061110) in olé (http://www.ole.clarin.com/diario/hoy/index.html) mentions the official match rule
pipita says he will not play for a national team until he is sold and I have to say I disagree with that because he will prolong his decision and because it will be tougher to change nationality when you're already gone and are thinking about the foreigner cap in spain for example
I'm honestly still confused..bilos was in a similar situation in that he made his debut in a friendly vs qatar but croatia still wanted him for the wc
he's still only ever played in friendly matches so I guess croatia still have a case
take him! :p

dimz

10-11-2006, 01:04 PM

Why does everybody hate Bilos? I think he's quite a good player. The unfortunate thing is he won't get into the argie team witht he talent that's on it.

west501

10-11-2006, 06:13 PM

Why does everybody hate Bilos? I think he's quite a good player. The unfortunate thing is he won't get into the argie team witht he talent that's on it.

you answered your own question
I don't have anything against el flaco bilos except when he and other players I deem undeserving are brought on and started over guys like aimar and d'alessandro
basile needs to get over his man-crush on bilos and get el pipita in there

capo

05-12-2006, 06:01 AM

Seeing how great Albiceleste thread has somewhat died after Mundial, I have a proposition - now assuming every regular poster in this thread still visits the forum...what if we all start talking about the performances of current Argentina squad players and Argentinos who you think should be on the team (the latest match/es you watched). Por ejemplo, let's say I watched Man Utd game today, then I would comment on Heinze, his performance, what he did well and what mistakes he made, maybe even your advice on how he should be used on a team. I think if everyone does follow my suggestion, we are gonna have a steady flow of information/analysis/insight and people who were unable to see a player in the match will have an idea of his current form and what he can do for our national team. Anyone agrees/wants to do it??

chauchey

05-12-2006, 10:26 AM

i'll comment on Messi and Crespo any chance i get! :D

west501

06-12-2006, 03:25 PM

my starting eleven of the moment
d.milito-crespo
d'alessandro-aimar-lucho
mascherano
heinze-g.milito-ayala-zanetti(c)
carrizo

dimz

06-12-2006, 06:42 PM

chauchey

06-12-2006, 09:32 PM

my starting eleven of the moment
d.milito-crespo
d'alessandro-aimar-lucho
mascherano
heinze-g.milito-ayala-zanetti(c)
carrizo

Not a bad lineup. I'd like to see Diego Milito play with Tevez, maybe even Messi, but the for saviola has shown when given a chance to play, he should still be starting with Crespo, given their chemistry together, and Crespo's consistant ability to finish when given the chance. I really am concerned that they have not been playing any other tall forward. Given Milito's preformance over the last season and a half, i think he should be given starting time on the national team, to find some chemistry with Tevez, Messi(who i'd like to see as a sub in the last 25-30 minutes of any game, just seems to do better then) or Aguero(although i'd let him develop another year before seriously considering him for a sub or starting role. Palacio I think has played well enough for a consistant spot on the bench, and perhaps some sub duty as well. Solid preformer under pressure. Nuff said.
The fact is, imo, d.milito needs to start playing. What happens if Crespo gets hurt? who's going to provide some talented size up front?

west501

07-12-2006, 01:24 AM

yeah, I meant this to be a team to be called up immediately if we were playing during the weekend so I didn't include injured guys or players that are out of form (is ayala injured? if so put in coloccini)
zanetti has been moved to the midfield and is playing like he's 10 years younger right now, it's amazing
as for the strike partnership I'd love to see those two right now because both of those players are goal scoring machines at the moment
tévez isn't and saviola wasn't seeing enough playing time to merit a position on this moment's squad
messi could certainly be worked in there if he was healthy over lucho or d'alessandro
as I've been saying since 2002 we need to base our midfield around aimar

I think part of the reason the thread died down is the post-world cup lull in activity (and form :mad: from the toast of the world-cup to the laughing stock of a brazilian b-team)
when is the next match we have to look forward to?

deviant

07-12-2006, 05:22 AM

no chance of Gago or Higuain making the lineup?

west501

08-12-2006, 04:33 AM

not right now, no
but if basile does play with a nationally based squad it'd be nice to see them included
nationally based I'm not entirely sure who I would go with
I hope he still manages to include messi and a handful of other key foreign based players (as long as they're not bilos and insúa) as promised
maybe something that would like this:

palacio-higuaín
montenegro-messi-belluschi
gago
dominguez-heinze-ayala(c)-ferrari
carrizo

not that I particularly like our side backs, I just cringe at the thought of krupoviesa and ibarra there even though that's 95% certain to happen
any other suggestions are fine..I've not been able to watch as much non-river games as I'd like and I usually completely ignore the other team when I'm watching so it's a tough call for me because of ignorance and fanaticism :rolleyes:
whatever we do we have to have cohesion in the central defence so those need to be imports
I have a feeling he'll bring verón back and I don't approve, but I like him and think it could be interesting since he's now nationally based

capo

09-12-2006, 02:00 PM

So, I did watch Man U game today…Gabi seemed to be all over the place (in a good way) very active, looks to be in top physical form his hard, well-timed tackles are a proof of that. Mentally looks to battle a bit…eager to prove that he deserves to start over Evra. With G. Neville (RB) who’s 80% of the time plays in advanced offensive position, Gabi’s first responsibility is to stay back and cover defensively. Covers his left side almost to perfection, BUT in a situation where he had to cover Vidic’s spot (left CB) lost positionally and created a great scoring opportunity for Man City (right CB Ferdinand hustled to challenge the shooter as well as GK Van Der Sar), also constantly looses air battles, but still goes up and challenges with no fear. What I really didn’t like is his clearance under pressure…just hits the ball hard and never gets it to a team-mate (important fact on starting counter attacks). Offensively, does join the attack nicely, but as mentioned before not as frequently…absolutely horrendous high into the box crossings seems to over hit it, so its not on target…did have an awesome low cross into the box directly to a team-mate – created/assisted on Man U’s second goal.

2nd half – much of the same just a whole lot more goin forward maybe that’s why one-on-one defense a little loose (gives space and allows crossings). Much of the Man City attacks, in both halfs, seemed to go thru Heinze's left side - I wonder if its a coinsidence.

Overall, without bein overly critical, very good and solid performance – typical Heinze Energizer (plays like a kid who ate too much chocolate :D).

Corrections that needs to make:
1) Calm down a bit as by runnin around and tryin to do too much gets you caught out of position
2) When gets a chance to start counter-attack needs to not panic and hit an open man
3) Finally, crossin into the box needs to improve dramatically

Comon guys lets get it goin I’m sure collectively we watch a large number of different games!!!

chauchey

06-01-2007, 08:51 PM

So boys and girls...are we going to win this U20 thing or what? I cant believe Velez didnt release their players for us. I really hope messi and aguero play in Canada this coming summer.
That aside, anyone scared of Columbia? They had a really killer squad for WYC2005.

west501

16-01-2007, 04:44 PM

big game for the u20 against uruguay tonight!
pity I'm likely going to miss it!

as for the senior team, days before basile gives his latest call-up list we have to add zabaleta to the injured list (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/01/16/um/01346128.html), which already includes tevez and messi
I think he has to call-up and start aguero and put pressure on higuain*
I also implore basile to start mascherano despite his current club woes, this will be a reminder to the world of his class..though I know basile has been itching to call-up gago
thoughts?

*real madrid's foreigners are marcelo, robinho, and diarra..so it's totally feasible for him to be the fourth, particularly after he's impressed in his first appearances

chauchey

16-01-2007, 07:32 PM

I think it would be a solid move to call up Mascherano. He should be playing. He did unreal in the WC. Gago has the club world at his feet right now with his latest transfer to RMA, and has nothing but playingtime and bright lights in his future. Mascherano doesnt, and is a better player. Give it to javiar and call it a day. You wont be disapointed, and it would do him a world of good.
Is crespo going to get a callup? In addition, is basile going to go with 'the best' that he can go with? or will he try less known talent so that he can prepare his team for the Copa Am, when he i believe has said, will start more domestic players that EU ones.

west501

16-01-2007, 08:04 PM

this will be the final callup of a fully european based squad
I hope he doesn't continue to insist with insua over aimar..bilos moved to mexico so he won't be around :rolleyes:
from here on in he is going to embark on a purely domestic adventure, which I actually am starting to get behind, cos if he can build a solid practised side for copa america and then add some european flair (messi, tevez, etc) we could take what slipped through our fingers last time

River

17-01-2007, 04:06 AM

Javier Saviola.. Damn, what a player.. Barcelona beat Alaves for the Copa del Rey, and the global score was 5-2. Guess who scored all 5 goals? Yup, Saviola. ;)

This is not the first time, he has 6 goals in the last 3 games, and I heard somewhere that this was his 10th goal in 14 games.

Everybody talks about Aguero, Messi, and Tevez, but many are forgetting about Saviola. There is no doubt that those three are great players, but I would currently consider el Conejito over any of them. Not to mention that most of his games in Barca he starts as a sub, enters later on in the game, and almost always ends up scoring.

Think about it:

He started in River.. La rompio.. Top goal scorer of the Torneo Apertura 1999, amazing games, all the top European clubs wanted him. At age 18, he was chosen Best Footballer of South America.
He played for the Argentine U-20 Team and was great.. He was one of the main reasons that team was so successful.. He also won the Golden Boot for being the top goalscorer of the 2001 U-20 World Cup (11 goals in 7 games).
He went on to Barcelona.. Despite not being starter all the time, he managed to score over 50 goals.
He went on loan to Monaco and had a very good campaign.
He was loaned to Sevilla, did good, and helped the team achieve success by winning the 2006 UEFA Cup.
He always did good for the Argentine NT. In the 2006 World Cup, his first ever WC, he was one of Argentina's best players. I would put him just behind Maxi Rodriguez in the list of best performances.
He now returned to Barcelona, and despite not being considered a starter, he has been taking advantage of his opportunities. According to a Spanish Newspaper poll, 85% of Barca fans want to see him as a starter. He completely shut Rijkaard's mouth. Not bad, right?

progott

17-01-2007, 07:38 AM

hi guys, i just realised that there is a forum for southamerican football. I'm a big fan of the argentina league and of course the national team.

Saviola is unbelievable. i think he is the world's best sub of a sub :confused: . The fans love him, he fits in the team and he's a goalscoring machine. it's a pity that FR hates him and so he must sit on the bench behind players like Eidur, Giuly or ezquerro. everybody knows that saviola loves this club, he even stayed there and was never in the squad before eto'ogot injured. he will be on the top of his career soon and as barca wont give him a new contract he must leave.

I think our next friendly is on 8 of february against france. Is Tevez realy injured? i think it's time to call up Gago, Higuain and Zarate.

dimz

17-01-2007, 03:35 PM

Yo anyone know what's up with Riquelme? I haven't seen him plauy for Villarreal in the last 2 matches and the commentators didnt' seem to mention anything about injuries. I can't find much English news on the matter so can one of you clear things up? I know Villarreal have this new guy Matias Fernandez but has he really displaced JRR?

chauchey

17-01-2007, 04:23 PM

eventually the pressure from a producing player to play a starting role becomes to much to deny. You move him, or play him. Keeping in mind that FR hasnt played him out of principle(FR wants players on incentive based contracts, and saviola's is a garuateed contract and saviola wont renegotiate), its going to be nigh impossible for saviola to break the starting linup consistantly.

River

17-01-2007, 11:38 PM

dimz

19-01-2007, 12:59 PM

He isn't convincing Pellegrini (I wonder why :rolleyes:), so he hasn't played him lately.
That's BS.....fucking hell, i'm getting every Villarreal match down here and i cant' see him!

chauchey

19-01-2007, 09:24 PM

apperantley they had a falling out(check the boca thread, or the riquelme thread) about him coming back 2 days later after NYE. Pelligrini made him come back at the same time as everyone else, and then snubbed him in practice by not saying hi. So Roman isnt playing for them anymore i believe. He's turned down a Bayern 18mil offer to go play there, and some suspect he just wants to come home. So theres a rumor going around he might join Boca for 6 months.

dimz

20-01-2007, 04:09 PM

hmm, thanks for the info mate. I'd like to see him back at Boca though. He was never fully appreciated in Europe due partly to himself and partly to coaches. So it would be better to see him join Boca again and bring confidence back to himself and to la bombonera.

west501

24-01-2007, 04:02 AM

Basile gives the list for the friendly against france on 7/2 (source (http://www.clarin.com/diario/2007/01/23/um/m-01350166.htm))
Keepers: Abbondanzieri, Leo Franco
Defenders: Ayala, Gabriel Milito, Burdisso, Heinze, Zanetti, Fuentes, Arruabarrena
Midfielders: Gago, Duscher, Cambiasso, Lucho González, Somoza, Aimar, Gutiérrez
Attackers: Saviola, Agüero, Diego Milito, Crespo y Lisandro López

while the virtual unknown gutierrez is the big surprise, the re-appearance of zanetti and the first appearance of gago are grabbing the headlines
this is the beginning of a harsh reality for mascherano, who will miss his first callup/start since he cemented his role as a teenager..but I get the feeling this was basile's plan all along..even if masche was tearing it up on the world class team he should be a part of
I blame river for selling him to an idiot that would take him to a second rate team like west ham :mad:
here's what I'd like to see

franco
zanetti(c)-ayala-heinze-g.milito
masch...gago :mad:
lucho---------cambiasso
aimar
saviola-crespo

edit: something that could make this match notable is that based on basile's well publicised plans to callup only argentine-based players, this could be the last callup for the soon to be 34 year-old legends zanetti and ayala, both of whom I rate amongst the greatest players of all-time
in reality, this is a match that both of those players (and crespo) should have played in this stadium in 98..and certainly lost :p
we'll likely lose this one too, but I hope it's a great match..unlike basile's others so far

progott

24-01-2007, 09:44 AM

your team looks good, but you should swap Milito and Heinze. Basile should also have called up Garay or maybe Barbosa instead of leo franco. for me he's the better keeper. I don't like Basile, but it's right not to call up Masche and Tevez. And Both will be back in the team when they perform as they did their whole live.
I realy like this team but look who's missing: Messi, Tevez, Mascherano, Maxi, Palacio, Gonzalo.

Ah...and Higuain wants to play for argentina in the future, that's gooood news.
http://www.eurosport.fr/football/qualifications-euro-2008/2006-2007/sport_sto1064531.shtml

west501

24-01-2007, 11:49 AM

edit: pipita's dual nationality dilemma seems to have take an unexpected positive turn! source (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/01/25/01351288.html)

partial translation:
A child is French when he is born in France, legitimate or naturalised, when one of his parents is also born there (article 19-1-2 of the civil code). But there is another law which permits Higuain remain French and have an Argentine passport: the law says that if the parents are both foreigners and do not transfer their nationality before the child turns 18 he remains French if he adopts another nationality after that age.

On the other hand, the Argentine Law of Nationality #346 deals with the birth right. It is considered that the land of birth decides the nationality. So a son of Argentines born in France is French. The law used to be irreversible, but there have since been some changes, such as decree #3.213 in 1984, which gives people for whom nationality was not designated upon place of birth the possibility to opt for Argentine nationality. In 1995, decree 231 gave those born abroad to Argentine parents the right to choose Argentine nationality.

So the question is, can one be French and Argentine at the same time? It would seem that it's allowed in Argentina, and in France as well...

Note, the article makes no mention as to who did the legal research..nor its legitimacy. Reporter Federico Rozenbaum gleefully jumps to the conclusion that he can be a dual citizen after we've heard otherwise for the last year. I know I couldn't apply for French citizenship without renouncing my Argentine passport, but then I have nothing to do with France, and like Higuain I don't speak French..though I'd play for les Bleus in a heartbeat. :p

givemehistory

27-01-2007, 09:42 PM

Higuaín saying he'd rather play for Argentina is the best news I've heard all week! I hope he gets called up for the next friendly. :D (And if the nationality thing is sorted out, could he play for the U-20s if they make it to Canada? That would be amazing.)

chauchey

10-02-2007, 05:04 AM

well argentina wins 1-0! :D Booya! And, finally we see Diego Milito suit up for argentina, which has been a long time coming, considering he's going to be our only size up front once Crespo retires(hopefully not for a while).
I'm apprehensive about what Basile is planning in the long term. If he is deciding to keep going with domestic players for the WC in 2010, and to what degree he will go with EU players for friendlies in EU. I could see him going with domestic players for games in S.Am, and why not. The european players play enough footy as it is, too much if they play on a big team in the CL. I hope its just his plan to split up the duties for the NT, and decrease the wear and tear on his bread and butter superstars.
If thats his strategy, i think its a good one. If its not...and he intends to pick domestics consistantly over stars playing abroad, i think it might be a mistake. I understand chemistry wins championships, but natural chemistry can easily be born among the players that have alot of talent and think the same way.

edit: Also, i think our defensive lineup is the best in the world. Bar none. unless one of these guys gets shot or run over in a freak lemming stampede, stick with this lineup, because they have not played bad together yet, in any game, at any level.

west501

10-02-2007, 03:01 PM

I'm still hoping cavenaghi can grow to fill the void crespo leaves
like I said in the other thread, I'm afraid that was the last time we'll see the pekerman team play together, and it was a good way to go out if you consider we could/should have played this game in july
basile showed me one positive and one negative in this match
+: he sucked it up and went with the old team because he knew an experimented bunch would fare better
-: that interview he gave after the game showed the simplicity of his thought process 'I put those who are playing well'
basile is not a team builder, he is a system builder..and his system works, but without a team behind it it can fall short because it lacks tactical discipline (complete opposite of system builder bielsa) and is based too much on concepts of quick short passing and all out attack rather than the pekermanian balance on all parts of the pitch
we do have great defenders, g.milito is growing right now and is having a fantastic season as the captain of zaragoza..ayala is likely to retire after the copa america or the olympics (if he's even called up) and we will need milito to step up
I thought heinze worked really well as the left back, looking eager as ever and that's good if we can field him there because two left footed cb's is an invitation to disaster
but it's worthless to talk about chemistry because, like I said, basile has stated he is going to try to build a system
in the early 90s his system worked gloriously, I guess we have to wait and see what happens this time
copa america will be a great test..he's won both of the tournaments he competed and takes it very seriously
I'd heard of some more friendlies between now and then, anyone know anything about this?

River

22-02-2007, 02:18 AM

A little bird, no make that a pretty big bird actually, tells me that a big-time international friendly to be held in the US is very close to being finalized. And it doesn't involve Mexico or the U.S.; it's Brazil v. Argentina. Look for the game to be played in late March, which would lead me to believe that this match is headed to Florida, California, or Texas. The source also indicates that this will not be scrub squads and to expect each team to bring it's stars so expect to see players whose names begin with "R" and end in "O".

You may be asking yourself "how good is this information"? All I will say is that this comes from the same place that hipped me to RBNY v. Barcelona a full 2 months before it was officially announced.

This sounds too good to be true. Plus, AFA confirmed the Australia-Argentina match that will be played on June 6th, and the Norway-Argentina match (August 22nd) today. Why would they have mentioned those two, but not the Arg-Bra one, if it will be played in one month? :confused:

Oh well, we can hope, right?.. right?

west501

23-02-2007, 07:02 PM

in other news, heinze asks to play the copa america (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/02/23/um/01368921.html) (spanish)
I fully support this idea because gaby needs something to help him through a very difficult moment at united (http://www.football-lineups.com/wiki/gabriel_heinze.php)
the setanta sports announcers said it best during his great performance in france (paraphrasing) 'it's amazing to think that france's third string left back [evra - an unused sub] has replaced heinze at manchester united'
he is very unfortunately tactically marginalised on a squad that is winning and as we all know 'el equipo que gana no se toca'
hopefully they'll run into some defensive troubles and we'll see heinze back in action..otherwise he should move in the summer
he shouldn't need to win a spot over lesser defenders when he can lead a defence on any team in the world

chauchey

24-02-2007, 09:26 AM

hopefully they'll run into some defensive troubles and we'll see heinze back in action..otherwise he should move in the summer
he shouldn't need to win a spot over lesser defenders when he can lead a defence on any team in the worldand i bet juve will be calling on every line. :P Looks like they might turn into the Inter Milan of next year, if they pick up a few names that are available.
I reallly wish Pekerman would have stayed on for another 4 years. I wont be saying that if we win everything from here till 2010, but i still have a softspot for the guy. He's good at his job(but should leave the subs to someone else ;) ) :p
But i digress. Systems are great provided you are willing to by into the fact that chemistry wins championships. Once you've believe that, then build a system around that which will continuely win. This is an oversimplified statement, but i really believe that if you're not going to take the best players available, the only other option you have is to pick a team based on chemistry. I believe Pekerman did this very well.

west501

28-02-2007, 03:33 AM

Basile comes through with his promise to bring a local based team to practise a few times a month! source (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/02/27/um/01371166.html) (spanish)
This is unprecendented in the recent history of the selección and I'm glad it gives players a reason to stay in Argentina if they want a chance to play national team football. Well done, Coco..real street smart.

Los jugadores citados son: Juan Pablo Carrizo (River Plate), Oscar Ustari (Independiente);
Hugo Ibarra (Boca Juniors), Paulo Ferrari (River Plate), Eduardo Tuzzio (River Plate), Hernán Pellerano (Vélez Sársfield), Daniel Díaz (Boca Juniors), Germán Re (Newell's Old Boys), Jonathan Bottinelli (San Lorenzo);
Leonardo Ponzio (River Plate), Agustín Pelletieri (Lanús), Juan Sebastián Verón (Estudiantes de La Plata), Fernando Belluschi (River Plate), Cristian Ledesma (San Lorenzo), Daniel Montenegro (Independiente), Neri Cardozo (Boca Juniors), José Sosa (Estudiantes de La Plata);
Rodrigo Palacio (Boca Juniors), Ezequiel Lavezzi (San Lorenzo), Mariano Pavone (Estudiante de La Plata) y Mauro Zárate (Vélez Sársfield).

the players in bold are the ones I am excited about..the name that sticks out is that of Verón :eek:
I stated officially that I did not want him to poison the world cup squad with his negativity, but now that it's a fresh start and particularly because I've enjoyed seeing his class in the last tournament I am actually excited
I'm also excited that we have a very solid local-based talent with which to form a squad :D
here's what I'd like to see in a hypothetical match drawing only from these players

carrizo
ferrari-tuzzio-díaz-ré
ponzio-verón
belluschi-cardozo
montenegro
pavone

the defence looks flimsy but the midfield is actually quite strong and I've wanted to see rolfi up there and pavone is a great powerful target man
the attack could be glorious if Basile gets them working like a well oiled machine (like last time)
he said he planned on bringing in key players from europa for the copa america..wonder how many

Aimar-21

28-02-2007, 09:58 AM

Ferrari is a very good player and I was wondering why he hadn't been called before. Especially when Argentina played with players like Coloccini or Burdisso in the back.
Zarate and Belluschi also deserved to be called.

chauchey

28-02-2007, 06:40 PM

i think bordussio was the unheralded kog in the wheel of what i considered to be the best defence on the planet today. I feel he fit in perfectly, not at all out of place. If they want to win championships, that defencive line of Burdisso, Ayala, Milito, and Heinze should NOT be broken up. Keep then togethe, and quite honestly, short of a goalie error, we should be winning some silverware sooner than later.

west501

27-03-2007, 03:53 AM

been a while here
thought I'd keep you posted on basile's unprecedented preparation of a national based side for the copa america
there has been a discussion about whether or not this is a b-team, and I'm sure we'll get grilled on this before the tournament so I have started to form my opinion and would like to know what you think

so this is one interesting recent development
this article (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/03/08/01376045.html) mentions how verón is looking to be the key of our midfield
you may remember my anti-veronista stance for wc06 just because I felt he was making uneccesary noise asking to be included in a squad he had been dropped from over 2 years and one coach before (bielsa had dropped him before copa america 04) and was being unsporting in the process
but I do feel that he was unjustly blamed for an overall poor performance in wc02 and am excited to see this world beater back on the seleccion
the article mentions the possibility of teaming up with riquelme in the middle and with two side mids and pavone with a second striker up front
I gotta say I like the idea of seeing a team that practises 3 days a week playing this summer

west501

19-05-2007, 07:43 PM

squad list for the friendlies in a few weeks:

Goalkeepers: Roberto Abbondanzieri (Getafe), Leonardo Franco (Atletico Madrid)
Defenders: Roberto Ayala (Valencia), Gabriel Milito (Real Zaragoza), Nicolas Burdisso (Inter Milan), Gabriel Heinze (Manchester United), Javier Pinola (Nuremberg)
Midfielders: Pablo Aimar (Real Zaragoza), Esteban Cambiasso, Javier Zanetti (both Inter Milan), Fernando Gago (Real Madrid), Luis Gonzalez (Porto), Jonas Gutierrez (Real Mallorca), Javier Mascherano (Liverpool), Ezequiel Garay (Racing Santander)
Forwards: Carlos Tevez (West Ham United), Diego Milito (Real Zaragoza), Hernan Crespo (Inter Milan), Javier Saviola, Lionel Messi (both Barcelona).

looking forward to seeing aimar, messi, and tévez play together

Aimar-21

19-05-2007, 09:52 PM

How is the squad for the Copa America going to be decided ?
From these 20 "foreign-based" players and the other squad that was training in Argentina the past weeks with players playing at Argentina?

Messi and Tevez together should be very interesting

west501

20-05-2007, 03:19 PM

basile has been training with a squad of nationally based players for the last months and has stated he plans on taking this practised based of players and adding a few key players from Europe
if it's bluff it worked because all of the European-based players who probably would have declined invitations are now lining up at the door for the copa america (crespo, aimar, ayala, los militos, heinze, zanetti, etc)
so basile will have the options to take a very strong squad this summer
he plans on basing the midfield around verón and said he doesn't mind playing him at the same time as riquelme who is set to come out of 'retirement' after two matches away from the albiceleste
we have always taken b-teams to the copa america (ie crespo has never even played one) until 2004 when we lost by a miracle
I hope we keep that attitude and win a couple so brazil decides to start bringing better squads and the tournament will be better for it

Aimar-21

20-05-2007, 07:53 PM

Yes, it's time for a Copa America.
Argentina is still over Brazil in this and it should remain like that.
:D

west501

24-05-2007, 03:29 PM

to continue with the 'unforgettable carlitos' series :p
http://www.ole.clarin.com/diario/2007/05/24/fotos/f027ch01.jpg

progott

24-05-2007, 04:22 PM

please basile, don't use messi as a striker. Please!

west501

24-05-2007, 08:53 PM

please basile, don't use messi as a striker. Please!

any ideas of how to use him?
I was going to post a formation I wanted to see, as usual, but couldn't quite come up with one
we have enough strike options to use three forwards again but enough midfielders to make that a crime as well

progott

24-05-2007, 10:33 PM

i would try something like this:

---------------Pato-----------------
Zanetti----Ayala---Milito------Heinze
------Lucho-------Masch-----------
Messi--------Aimar-----------Tevez
-------------Crespo----------------

or this:

--------Messi------Aimar--------
--------Tevez-----Crespo------

dimz

25-05-2007, 02:20 PM

Based on the squad i'd love to see the following: (never seen Pinola btw, so i'm going to assume he's a left back and place him there for my purposes).

-------------Pato------------
Zanetti---Ayala---Heinze---Pinola
------------Masche----------
----Lucho--------Cambiasso--
-----------Aimar------------
--Messi-------------------
------------Crespo----------

west501

25-05-2007, 03:45 PM

observe the formation from our 94 debut :eek:

islas
sensini-ruggeri-caceres-chamot
simeone-redondo-elmasgrande(c)
caniggia-batistuta-balbo

this was an attacking festival and arguably the greatest team we ever took to a world cup
we could field this formation again with the players we have now with messi and tevez playing freely behind a targetman like crespo/milito and masche playing with veron/lucho/cambiasso, and a playmaking genius like aimar/roman

franco
zanetti-ayala(c)-gabi-gaby
lucho-masche-aimar
messi-crespo-tevez

dimz

25-05-2007, 05:39 PM

Aimar-21

25-05-2007, 08:57 PM

I believe that Pato should be at GK. He had an incredible season with Getafe.
I totally agree with the Tevez-Crespo-Messi offensive line.
I'm not a big fan of Heinze and I can't think of another good defender (European based) to play along with Ayala.

dimz

27-05-2007, 01:34 AM

Just thought i'd post one of the best videos of all time. IMO. A roomate of mine (an Argie) showed this to me years ago and i just came across it going through some old files on my PC. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/v/FniNe5oRNKM

River

30-05-2007, 06:32 AM

Argentina vs Argelia Próximo 5 de Junio
El 5 de Junio de 2007 se enfrentaran las selecciones de Argentina y Argelia en un amistoso a realizarse en el estadio de Barcelona "Camp Nou", el estadio con más capacidad de toda Europa (98.787 espectadores).
Entradas en venta a partir del 30 de Mayo en la boletería del estadio "Camp Nou". Las acreditaciones se solicitan a la siguiente dirección: paginaweb@afa.org.ar

Basically Argentina vs. Algeria on June 5th in Barcelona's Camp Nou stadium.

Possible Friendlies
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2007/05/30/fotos/51.jpg

west501

01-06-2007, 05:32 PM

confirmed (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/06/01/um/01430097.html) lineup for tomorrow afternoon's match against suisse

Abbondanzieri
Zanetti-Ayala(c)-Milito-Heinze
Lucho-Gago-Cambiasso
Messi
Tevez-Crespo

obviously the world will be watching to see if messi can step into the key role for the national team
he will be playing freely behind the strikers
looking forward to the game, hope to see masche and aimar in there at some point

dimz

01-06-2007, 05:42 PM

Nice. What time is that match? and is it on 'tv'?

lazymagician

02-06-2007, 07:50 PM

its not on tv here in Canada, but i'm watching it on live stream right now on espn. Not the best quality stream, but does the job lol. btw, we're up 1-0...Tevez scored a great goal.

FT: 1-1 draw.

I think we played well, but a dumb mistake by Heinze (i think it was him, could hardly tell from the video) allowed the swiss to score the equalizer. Ahh well, it was just a friendly, not a big deal.

west501

04-06-2007, 08:08 PM

It was a relatively poor game against the swiss. The team seemed to have a mismatch between purpose and execution on the pitch that led to a midfield game that was only cohesive for short stretches. That said, we were unlucky to concede and to not have converted a few chances that would have put the victory more clearly in reach. But on a day like saturday missing those sitters almost seemed predestined and a victory wouldn't have been much consolation. The game against france had a completely different feel, as I said the ghost of pekerman was on the bench for a game that should have been played in germany. It was something of a one-off in a string of frustrating matches. Basile is primarily known as a motivator and hopefully the players can turn the urgency of winning the copa america into a positive force to build the squad.

Just got to watch the friendly vs Algiers and I must say it was a tale of two halves. We lost the first terribly 1-2, with a total lack of clarity in the midfield and a dismal mistake by Pato. The second half was a 3-1 rout with one good change after another, starting with the man who turned the game around and organised our midfield with a clinical precision that makes him, for my €€€, our most important player and the best defensive central midfielder in the world: Javier Mascherano, of course. The other great change was putting in Lucho and moving Zanetti in his natural position, where he was unbelievable, sprinting half the field in both directions until the last minute. The last key change was Pablo Aimar. Messi needs (un socio) a partner, another player with tricky skills and great vision that will get him more openings to work. Indeed Pablito gave Messi a Bochini-esque pass to leave him alone vs. the keeper. Of course, Pato was again the weakest player of the half and I enjoyed that shot of everyone celebrating and him walking off as if we'd lost 0-3, because he really did. Hope this is the last we see of him. Same for Gago. Don't get me wrong, he is a good player, but we have the most glaringly obvious choice of any team in the world for our #5.

Toone10

09-06-2007, 04:46 PM

According to Gazzetta.it, Zanetti Javier scored 5 goals with his national Team.

I remember only 2:
1. England V Argentina - 1998 - WC
2. Uruguay V Argentina - ???? - ??

I asked Guest501 (thanks to him, btw) he said JZ scored another goal against Japan in a friendly game (2003).

I'll appreciate if our Argentinian Brains could help
Thanks in advance.

chauchey

12-06-2007, 03:08 PM

i'm pretty sure google can help you there :) Or wiki or JZ webpage(if he has one). What a pass though, pin point accuracy, and a header by Cambiasso made the whole thing look easy-peasy. :D Messi with a few points continues his torrid pace leading up to the Copa America. :eek: When you conisder how many goals he has in La Liga, versus how many games he's played, its really amazing to see him developing into a better and better player. :)

Aimar-21

20-06-2007, 08:37 AM

Riquelme back to the National team. He had a talk with Basile and told him that he wants to return to the team. Basile will have him for the Copa America.

:)

progott

20-06-2007, 03:54 PM

woooohhhoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
that's great. Roman and Messi in the midfield :eek:

dimz

20-06-2007, 05:56 PM

OH ARE YOU SERIOUS?!!!!! This is GREAT news! I hope he's back for good and not just because the tournament is near to home in Argentina. Welcome back you MASTER!

west501

20-06-2007, 07:08 PM

basile had to wait for him to call because he couldn't call up a 'retired' player, particularly this one
this is very last minute, but I think roman taking the initiative is important
though when he 'retired' I immediately expressed a desire for him to return to an already formed team as the 11th man and, well, we don't really have that
we have struggled mightily, so the way basile handles this is very very important
hopefully he won't just give riquelme the ball and the armband again and just put it on his shoulders
I wish we had a more tactical coach
in any case we need this copa america
squad will be named tomorrow, I'm looking forward to it

lazymagician

21-06-2007, 03:16 AM

is this for real??? God i hope so!! This is awesome news! I knew he'd be back, all he needed was some confidence again.

Aimar-21

21-06-2007, 04:05 PM

Basile is giving his list today, according to TyC the 22 players will be:

Arqueros: Roberto Abbondanzieri (Getafe), Juan Pablo Carrizo (River) y Agustín Orión (San Lorenzo).

Defensores: Roberto Ayala (Valencia), Javier Zanetti (Inter), Hugo Ibarra (Boca), Gabriel Milito (Zaragoza), Gabriel Heinze (Manchester United), Daniel Díaz (Boca), Nicolás Burdisso (Inter).

Mediocampistas: Luis González (Porto), Javier Mascherano (Liverpool), Esteban Cambiasso (Inter), Fernando Gago (Real Madrid), Pablo Aimar (Zaragoza), Lionel Messi (Barcelona), Juan Sebastián Verón (Estudiantes) y Juan Román Riquelme (Boca).

Delanteros: Hernán Crespo (Inter), Diego Milito (Zaragoza),Carlos Tevez (West Ham) y Rodrigo Palacio (Boca).

west501

21-06-2007, 04:58 PM

this is confirmed (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/06/21/um/01442477.html)
on paper that is the strongest team in the tournament and the envy of the world, but we have to see what can be done in practise

dimz

21-06-2007, 06:02 PM

Great news. That is a very strong team actually, so the expectations will be quite high. Then again i expected a win anyway. :rolleyes:

lazymagician

22-06-2007, 05:44 AM

This really is awesome, Riquelme is on a high right now and i cant wait to see him back for Argentina again. Feels like too long since the WC and its time for another big competition. I notice that Higuan has been left out of the squad...is there a reason for that? i'm just wondering since he's been pretty strong for Real madrid esp in the last match, i would think this would be a good time to get him playing for the national side too.

chauchey

24-06-2007, 06:37 AM

west501

25-06-2007, 02:43 AM

olé reports a possible starting lineup source (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/06/24/um/01444592.html)

Abbondanzieri; Zanetti, Ayala, G. Milito, Heinze; Verón, Mascherano, Cambiasso; Riquelme; Messi y Crespo

on paper this means that the idea of basing the midfield around messi is over
though I think he'll be highly mobile once the whistle blows
I asked for creative company and basile delivers in the form of verón and riquelme
wow, the possibilities of that are mouth watering
see on thursday!

dimz

25-06-2007, 03:21 AM

Not a bad lineup if it's true, but i would prefer to see a 4-3-3 with Tevez instead of Seba. I haven't been impressed with his displays this season (at least compared to Tevez'). But like u said, we'll see on thursday!

Honestly, i hope they win by over 4 goals, i'd love to see the USA get their shit kicked. Sending a weak side is an insult when you consider this is the biggest tournament the Western Hemispher has to offer.

lazymagician

25-06-2007, 03:47 AM

Higuain didnt play better than palacio, especially when you consider that palacio has been with Basile for quite some time now. I think maybe next year will be his year, when Crespo officially retires from international play, but not before then. Once again the defensive core is put together that truely is a fright for any offense coming in. Puppi being the only change(for Sorin). That starting 4 is imo, the best in the world, bar none! I'm sad that Saviola wasnt chosen, but its understandable why he wasnt. I look forward to seeing the chemistry that can be developed by the newer players on the squad, and also the sqeaking of Verons bum on bench, because i really hope that guy doesnt see any playing time. I dont like his penchant for disapearing for whole seasons and tournaments at a time.

-- true, i guess higuain is so young that we can afford to wait a year or 2 before using him. I have'nt seen much of argentine league this season except for a couple of matches recently so i wouldn't be able to compare palacio and higuain, but i definately cant wait to see how palacio does playing for the national side though. I forgot about saviola too, definately gonna miss seeing him too.

olé reports a possible starting lineup source (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/06/24/um/01444592.html)

Abbondanzieri; Zanetti, Ayala, G. Milito, Heinze; Verón, Mascherano, Cambiasso; Riquelme; Messi y Crespo

on paper this means that the idea of basing the midfield around messi is over
though I think he'll be highly mobile once the whistle blows
I asked for creative company and basile delivers in the form of verón and riquelme
wow, the possibilities of that are mouth watering
see on thursday!

-- that sounds like a great lineup, all except for veron...dont know why but he just makes me so nervous. Honestly i have'nt seen him play in years, so maybe he's changed, but i just cant really see him gelling with the others on the team. I'd much rather see aimar or tevez in the lineup instead. But like you said, we'll see what happens on thursday, i cant wait.

chauchey

25-06-2007, 07:53 AM

dont know why but he just makes me so nervous.because he's lazy and hasnt produced anything but a single trophy in as long as i can remember. All the teams he's played on have played inconsistantly and have underachieved(except perhaps the apertura that Estudientes won). His name, in the swan song of his career with the best potential futbol behind him, is not synoymous with winning. I'm nervous too... :(

Aimar-21

25-06-2007, 02:10 PM

I'd prefer to see some Argentina-based players like Zarate, Pavone, Ferrari, Ledesma etc
I like the offensive line though

dimz

25-06-2007, 02:19 PM

I'd prefer to see some Argentina-based players like Zarate, Pavone, Ferrari, Ledesma etc
I like the offensive line though
I agree but i think Basile sort of realizes this tournament is very important for the future of him at the helm and the mentality of the team. He hasn't had very good results at all since WC06 and he's probaby going all out for a win.

west501

25-06-2007, 03:08 PM

I expect to see more nationally based players in qualifiers
we have several players approaching their mid 30s, who will be set to retire after this tournament: ayala :(, zanetti :(, and pato :D:D:D
if anyone has the possibility to screw us in the copa it's abbondanzieri, as per usual, though I think he'll (miraculously) do well under tournament pressure
zarate will be making his senior team debut soon, but for now he's going to canada according to the wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_FIFA_U-20_World_Cup_squads#Argentina)
pretty tasty looking squad as well with aguero and escudero
pavone will look to replace crespo, ferrari zanetti, though I don't think ledesma is at the national team level

dimz

25-06-2007, 07:08 PM

Wow, a bit harsh on Pato? No bias there of course :rolleyes: .

west501

25-06-2007, 07:32 PM

Wow, a bit harsh on Pato? No bias there of course :rolleyes: .

bias?
what chu talkin bout? I got nothing against getafe :o
http://www.shoxty.com/archives/gary-coleman.jpg
(notice coleman sporting the argentina training jacket)
in all seriousness, I've said it since day 1, like palermo, pato does not have the temperament to play for the national team..tevez does, riquelme one could argue but I do want him on the NT, so it's not a club bias thing..at least not entirely ;)
he allowed 3 identical goals against brazil and algeria, hopefully he won't do so against the eeuu, colombia, paraguay, or any of the other teams
he's getting up there in age and juan pablo carrizo and oscar ustari are far better keepers

chauchey

25-06-2007, 11:51 PM

Ayala is retireing from the NT after the Copa? :eek: What? There goes my plan for footballing world dominance for the next 10 years!! :( Seriously though, i was hoping to keep him untill at least a year or two from now...perhaps that was a bit optimistic?

west501

26-06-2007, 01:08 AM

no, it's not definite, but you gotta think if these guys want to leave on a high note, they could do it now
I can't see them playing in the next world cup and I can't imagine basile will continue to call them

chauchey

26-06-2007, 01:31 AM

Ayala is a guy who you can tell is slowly getting...slower. But he's so smart he looks like he could play for another few years without looking out of place.

Aimar-21

26-06-2007, 02:19 PM

I think Pato is decent, but I don't share your optimism for players like Carrizo.
I've seen too many Lux-es and Constanzo-s until now, so I try not to get carried away with new super-keepers.
I'd like to watch Ustari though

chauchey

26-06-2007, 04:12 PM

Pato won me over heart and soul when he put on a goaltending clinic in the 2005 Copa Sud. Especially the round against Uni.Cat. and the finals. What a show that was. Mind you, the team played great in front of him which always helps. I agree that he's seemed ordinary at times, but I still like the guy, and i think in big games he's showed up, and proven he can do so consistantly. Had germany not accidentally-on-purpose injured him, i believe we would have won that game. Even with Riquelme subbed out.

west501

26-06-2007, 06:34 PM

carrizo is an outstanding keeper with an ice cold temperament, you'll see!
pato is too, at the club level..but at the national level you can tell he is always quite nervous, he thrives on this nervous energy at times, but it can also lead to enormous blunders

edit: I am sure that the previous info was not credible (source (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/06/27/um/01446372.html)), though I would like to see aimar in the second half

chauchey

29-06-2007, 04:29 PM

not only did you get your wish, but he played very well. I really like it when Airmar is subbed on, because he's able to break the game, and because he's fresh, his presence is more pronounced with less chance of injury to him. The score was expected, and to be honest, our team looked disinterested most of the game, like a man playing against a child. Lets hope they come prepared against the Columbia and take things a bit more seriously, and with a bit more intensity.
Tevez by the way, looks like a man on a mission. If he gets a full game, i look for him to get a hattrick. I hope i get to quote myself on that. :D

west501

29-06-2007, 06:09 PM

I think last night's game was a much more dangerous situation than a lot of us choose to admit
it was 1-1 with 30 minutes left and they were defending obsessively to the point where it was very difficult to produce dangerous situations
messi was a non-factor for most of the game, but like the greats the potential to change the game in one move is always present
he showed some magic last night despite it not being an all out dominant performance
like I said in the post game thread, the US&A actually had the balls to come out of their defensive shell and it cost them 3 goals, but I credit them for trying to go for the game

as for veron, I was worried at times, particularly when he seemed to be childishly badgering the ref who replied by childishly nagging him to lift his socks
but he showed his maturity in this game by playing as a squad player, and what a luxury that is to have the former world's top midfielder as just a secondary playmaker to roman and messi

deviant

29-06-2007, 06:44 PM

call me crazy but i still believe Lux is the best

dimz

29-06-2007, 06:52 PM

call me crazy but i still believe Lux is the best
Crazy. :D

Aimar-21

29-06-2007, 11:06 PM

I'm very happy with the effect that Pablito had on the team. There aren't any easy games and the 4-1 score should not hide the fact that up to to the final third of the game it was 1-1.

chauchey

30-06-2007, 02:42 AM

but the usa never looked dangerous imo. similliar in some ways to WC2k6 with Serbia and Montenegro, in which the game was also broken open late.

chelsea_fan

30-06-2007, 03:23 PM

YES Pablito YOUR THE BEST! Good to see Seba back in good form. :D

The score was expected, and to be honest, our team looked disinterested most of the game, like a man playing against a child. Lets hope they come prepared against the Columbia and take things a bit more seriously, and with a bit more intensity.

:p olol ,, spot on, i think colombia will come on strong, after being hammered.

chauchey

01-07-2007, 02:00 PM

So the U-20's play Panama on monday i believe, and the Sr. team plays Columbia on Tuesday. i think the U-20's will win both their games, although i'd like to see them shooting more from afar, and making short passes in the box to get a quality scoring chance. Anything outside the box rarely goes in anyways.
Does anyone know the starting lineup of the sr. mens team for our next game?

west501

01-07-2007, 04:59 PM

press in Argentina has spoken about their positives and negatives from the first match, a lot of them source (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/07/01/um/01448962.html)
rather than translate all of the quotes I can summarise the main ideas
positives: the overflowing offensive possibilities including aimar and tévez on the bench and basile's increasing astuteness with the changes
negatives: the speed of the match was too slow and we 'showed our cards' plus the lack of defensive cohesion in the central pair, heinze's identity crisis as a left back, and the lack of help for mascherano in the middle

I expect to see the same lineup on monday night, but hopefully with some minor tactical changes and more cohesion because we looked tie-able against the united states, and beatable against any of the stronger sides in the tournament

edit: lineup confirmed, no changes source (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/07/01/um/01448976.html) with video of coco reading it out

lazymagician

01-07-2007, 05:33 PM

Did anyone else catch the U-20 match yest? I thought we played really well, very entertaining, but clearly lacked finishing capabilities. It did'nt help that the Czech had all 11 players defending almost the entire match, but with the number of chances we created, we should have been able to score at least one. I dont know what they could have done differently though, there was just no space and they seemed to have trouble creating it. I was very impressed by Morales, Banega, and Zarate. It's my first time seeing them play and they all surprised me in a good way. I'm definately looking forward to seeing more of this team now.

Aimar-21

02-07-2007, 06:09 PM

west501

02-07-2007, 07:38 PM

Yep, I watched it yesterday.
I knew Banega and Zarate, but Morales was something new for me.
The Czechs had parked a bus in front of their goal. Argentina should have won it easily.

As for the "big" team my main concern is the defensive line. I think Milito is somewhat overrated and Ayala is still the only solid DC in the team and I also believe there is a huge problem in the left back. Heinze is not playing well for a long time.

I did not get to watch la sub-20 and once the result was spoiled I chose not to download
I did see some highlights and while I agree with criticisms that a professional international tournament should not be played on turf, it evades the issue of poor finishing
damian escudero, enormously talented left footed midfielder, is set to start vs. panama
I'll watch if uruguay are not entertaining

you should give milito a chance, he has great defensive skill, drive, and overlooked passing ability
his current problems are due more to chemistry, which I agree is a problem under basile
but this is a great defender who I think we are going to base our defence on for the next world cup

chauchey

03-07-2007, 05:05 AM

of all our problems, i feel defense on the Sr. team is the least. Heinze doesnt look really focused, but he's not playing poorly either. Milito is a very good defender, and i think he'll be our best once Ayala retires. Burdisso is a great choice to start, and i'd like to see him get a chance soon.
The U-20 team should certainly have finished off the game 1, or 2-0. They didnt have the finish and took far to many low percentage shots from outside the box looking for individual glory(or so it seemed). Thats something that will hopefully change with maturity. That is after all, why its the U-20 tourney. :p I look for Aguero to get a goal next game, and Morales had better show up to play some team-shortpassing football or he should sit for a game. Very talented, but needs to think a bit more.

chelsea_fan

07-07-2007, 09:17 PM

U20 argentina vs brazil - toronto . going to be exciting game, the two south american powerhouses pinned against one another, though i wish we faced the US, i dislike them with a passion. :mad:
aguero sweet freekick against n.korea....but the koreans should have tied the game, they had loads of chances at the end, but execution was poor.

ya morales, zarate, banega, are fantastic players also acosta (with the head bandages) is pretty skillful player aswell.

cheers.

progott

07-07-2007, 10:06 PM

argentina will play poland in the next round. I hope they show a bit more team spirit than in the last game, and i too hope that tocalli doesn't do his stupid subs again. He should take out Zarate, he did nothing in all games. He's too selfish and he seems to have no fun in this tournament.

chauchey

12-07-2007, 03:04 AM

well, another good preformance by an argentinian team that simply outclassed their opponents. Messi carded early on for diving against Marquez. I didnt catch a really good replay on that particular call. Anyone have any comments?
Notice the switch for the second half where Messi and Tevez changed sides. Very good, worked out well. Messi, Heinze, Riquelme all with goals, Riquelme/tevez(2) with assists, 2 for tevez if you count him earning the call for the penalty shot. The only cause for concern i saw was that Mexico would sneak up and steal the ball because either our passes where too slow or the players where waiting for the ball to come to them. Besides that, i thought they looked good.
They should definetly be the favorites to win in the final on Sunday, but they cant go out there thinking they're going to have the trophy handed to them. Its not like Brasil is without some bite of their own.

west501

12-07-2007, 03:43 AM

I didn't think it deserved to be called for anything, dive or foul
the ref chose to make a point but it obviously didn't phase messi
brazil is brazil, they are always dangerous!
indeed they tied us with a b-team, albeit one with more redeeming qualities, in 2004 and beat us with the current b-team in 2006!
there's no one saying they can't do it again..particularly if they get gifted chances like mexico got today :eek:
but yes, like in 2004 we're overwhelming favourites, hopefully we will leave nothing to chance and have a nice multi-goal lead in the 94th minute ;)
this is the one that counts, if we don't win on sunday there will be little to take away from this cup
I hope we do it for the veterans, ayala, zanetti, crespo:(, verón..all players deserving of at least a copa america during their storybook careers

Aimar-21

12-07-2007, 03:33 PM

2004 was a nightmare.

Great game yesterday, though Mexico had some good chances that could have turned the game.
Grande Riquelme, Messi and I really liked Veron yesterday.
Carlitos plays for the whole team, in doing that he doesnt score that much but is a key player in many goals.

VAMOS ARGENTINA

akd

12-07-2007, 07:43 PM

I'm a bit worried about the defensive line, especially those distractions by Heinze and Ayala. Against Brasil, those stupid errors would have cost us two goals. I was also worried about the shot on the bar of Nery which could have easily gone in. Someone has to cut those passes before they create any real danger. At some times of the match, I felt as if Argentina gave up possession and let Mexico take the initiative, we certainly cannot do that against Brasil. Although I liked Riquelme's game yesterday, at times he lateralizes play too much instead of accelarating. We could have killed the game even more if he would have accelerated play.

We also need to work on the connection between Messi and Tévez and these two with Román and Verón.

Good win, but we still need to improve on the back line.

chauchey

12-07-2007, 10:42 PM

i managed to catch the second half of the Argentina U-20's this afternoon. They looked good. Firmly in control. Poland didnt look dangerous once in the time i was watching. What was the first half like?

progott

12-07-2007, 10:49 PM

the first half was like the second. we controlled the game but didn't score from one of our chances.

---------Banega------------
---Maxi---------KUN------

it's art....

Aimar-21

12-07-2007, 10:50 PM

akd

13-07-2007, 05:49 AM

chauchey

13-07-2007, 06:33 AM

anything serious?

progott

13-07-2007, 10:14 AM

Exactly the same. Poland had a parked a bus in front of their keeper. They lost a big chance though at 0-0. Their goal was offside.
Great game by Kun. Moralez and Banega were also very good.
Why wasn't Zarate playing ? The team looks good but needs a striker

The team is faaar better without Zarate. Didn't you count how oftern he tried to dribble through 3/4 defenders and lost the ball instead of passing?
Di Maria is better than Zarate, he's as fast as him, has the same skills and is more of a team player. Just watch Zarate in the Korea game again and you'll se what i mean.

Aimar-21

14-07-2007, 08:34 AM

Zarate was pretty bad, but I didn't like the other options either. It seems to me that it's all up to Kun to create things and score goals. I wasnt impressed by Di Maria.

west501

15-07-2007, 04:32 AM

I remember only 2:
1. England V Argentina - 1998 - WC
2. Uruguay V Argentina - ???? - ??

I asked Guest501 (thanks to him, btw) he said JZ scored another goal against Japan in a friendly game (2003).

I found the other two!

vs slovakia in 1995 friendly
vs bosnia-herzegovina 1998 friendly

source (http://www.clarin.com/diario/2007/02/05/deportes/d-00401.htm)
he's asked who he scored against and from there come the last two
he confused Bosnia-Herzegovina with Yugoslavia..and I don't know where he got Jordan from
maybe because it starts with a J :confused:

chauchey

15-07-2007, 07:38 AM

big games tomorrow. both squads. DOUBLE HEADER!! :D Score predictions?

Arg 4 - Bra 2

Arg 3 - Mex 2

Toone10

15-07-2007, 11:20 AM

Thanks to you GUEST501, My "Zanetti's Goals with NT" list is full (I hope to add something today :) )

1. ARGENTINA v SLOVAKIA - 1995 - Friendly
2. ARGENTINA v BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA - 1998 - Friendly
3. ARGENTINA v ENGLAND - 1998 - World Cup '98
4. ARGENTINA v URUGUAY - 2004 - World Cup Qual 2006
5. ARGENTINA v JAPAN - 2003 - Friendly

I've also read that he was sent off (at least) once, Against Colombia in 99 (the game with the 3 penalties missed by M Palermo). If somebody remember something about his red card or another, I will appreciate details. I was a bit surprised when I read that, because in 543 official Matches (+ All Friendlies) with Inter, He was sent off only once and it wasn't really deserved :D

west501

15-07-2007, 04:03 PM

4. ARGENTINA v URUGUAY - ... - ....

that's 10/2004 - WCQ and Pekerman's emphatic debut

chauchey

16-07-2007, 02:52 AM

west501

16-07-2007, 03:53 AM

Disclaimer: I chose not to put this in the post-game thread for fear of starting another needless war between supporters. This thread is for supporters of Argentina, and if you're looking at this post please keep in mind what I just said.

This is the way I saw the game.
Every team played anti-football against us and we won every other match convincingly because we had the poise and the patience to break them down with a few goals. We couldn't beat Brazil today because we allowed them to take this key part of our game away from us. It was that simple.

Every other side we faced made a fundamental mistake in not trying to hurry us. They mistook Riquelme and Verón's slowing down of the match as defensive success, at their peril. Dunga, as poor of a coach as he is, is smarter than that. Brazil hurried us today, biting Riquelme and Verón every time they got the ball to force a turnover and if not they invariably committed a tactical foul. Not enough for a yellow in many cases, but enough to disrupt our offensive flow and more importantly to get under their skin. It was also Dunga's strategy to have players go down to time waste after we got any rhythm going. They made us impatient. By the middle of the first half everything we tried was failing, while Brazil were literelly getting us to put the ball into our own net. We lost our poise and the match easily after this.

The scandal is that we should never have allowed them to control the match. It's a disgrace to lose a final to this Brazil in such a fashion. The first goal was unlucky, and this is where having a keeper like Pato :eek: hurt us. He watched it go by him; close enough for him to have at least attempted a save! At this point it would have been smarter to lure Brazil's defence into a sense of complacency by playing a bit more conservatively and putting out their momentum. We needed damage control in the first half and it was in our best interest to keep the match close while gaining control. Instead we went all out attack to equalise and allowed them to impose their frenetic tempo on the match.

This match was a repeat of the famous Champions League Final between Cruyff's offensive 'Dream Team' and Capello's defensive 'Catenaccio.' Indeed, Dunga is the Capello of South America. Milan did not beat Barça because they played better than Barça did at their best. Milan won by bringing Barça's game down to its worst and playing much better than that with relative ease. I think this rings true for Copa America 2007 as well.

akd

16-07-2007, 05:12 AM

Zanetti needs to go??? and why would that be?? He was by far our best player alongside Mascherano during the tournament!!

Anyways....We played beautiful football (jogo bonito) and for what???? To come out first losers! The only solution is to re-build the team from the back up. Our defense has been crap throughout the tournament, it is just that we were able to score and that helped to mask the big fracture in the back. Once we met a big rival it really showed. We also need midfielders who are faster and can hook up better with both Tevez and Messi. We also need a big forward upfront. Maybe Bergessio?? Maybe Pavone??

Aimar-21

16-07-2007, 08:35 AM

I agree in most parts with guest501. I want to add some things just because I'm so frustrated.
The game looked like water polo in some moments. Brazil kept on fouling the Argentinians and cutting down the passing game. They were lucky to score in their first chance with a player that had been mediocre this season, but that's life. This made things very bad for Argentina. Riquelme hit the post and somewhere there the countdown began. A shaky Argentina defense, vulnerable to the counter-attack made it 2-0.

Brazil was a team without much talent in this Copa America. If they were a World Cup team they would surely have a different approach. They knew their weakness and they used counter-attacks and a lot of fouls against a passing team.

Argentina even with the bad luck of the post and the first shot/first goal could have taken this, if the players were not hypnotized. Many incomplete passes that were pretty easy, no communication and a team that seemed not to believe they could take this.
I didn't like any player, even Mascherano who tried a bit more.

Basile is not to blame. Maybe for some of his choices in defense, Heintze for example. But even with that, he can't be blamed for yesterady.
He is to be blamed if he doesn't call up more Argentina-based players in the new team he has to build. Players that meet the Brazilians in Libertadores and Sudamericana and win them all the time and not players that havent won anything since the mid 90s. I think much of the problem in the team is in psychology. Tha last three defeats (Confederations, the friendly game and espacially yesterday) can create a lot of problems.
I believe he is a great manager, I have watched him with Boca and I know he can do it.

Toone10

16-07-2007, 02:43 PM

... Zanetti also needs to go...

Zanetti needs to go??? and why would that be?? He was by far our best player alongside Mascherano during the tournament!!

I was surprised when I read that this morning. yes, ok, Zanetti has not the "argentina" style (like Ayala, Milito, Coloccini, Burdisso, Heinze,...). Yesterday, like often when his team loses, he was one of the best player on the pitch. Ok, Riquelme played a fantastic CA but he missed the biggest match. Why, after the nth free-kick missed by R, Aimar didn't take the ball (or even another player) ?

I don't like Ayala for his style of play, but I was very disappointed after his OG, For Argentina but too for him-self ...

I hope that Zanetti can help (at least) Argentina to go to the 2010 WC and maybe also play it, because he said that his career will finish in June 2010.

I'm a JZ fan so i'm not neutral when I speak about him.

west501

18-07-2007, 05:26 PM

news and commentary:

Ayala retires in disgrace. (http://www.clarin.com/diario/2007/07/17/deportes/d-1459075.htm) The butt end of many a joke in Argentina, the truth is he's probably the second greatest central defender in the history of the national team (good editorial (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/07/18/01459576.html)). Though he is way below the wonder of football that was Daniel Alberto Passarella. There is a hot debate about his successor in Argentina, but for the time being many of the names being mentioned can't even be taken seriously because of said disgrace. I thought Gonzalo Rodriguez was an interesting choice but he is set to miss his second straight season to a recurrence of the knee injury that kept him out last year. Burdisso deserves a shot. Fazio from the u20 is a very interesting player with his imposing 1.95m stature, deceptive quickness, and exquisite skill for a defender. He is indeed from the famed Ferrocarril Oeste school that has produced many of Argentina's greatest ever defenders. But save him for future consideration as he has never played a minute of first division football.

Basile: I should have made 7 changes at halftime. (http://www.clarin.com/diario/2007/07/17/deportes/d-1459012.htm) While taken out of context, the headline is highly indicative of Basile's intention of putting the blame squarely on the players. 'For me Brazil is like any other. I want to win every game in the same fashion. I played and tactically aligned the same way in all of the games in the Copa America.' For ME that is an admission of guilt. Imo, a more tactically astute coach would have lured Brazil out to open play* instead of bullishly falling straight into their defensive/counterattacking trap. Basile lost the game to Dunga, which is embarrassing enough in itself.

*I recognise if we'd scored first (or deservedly tied), this would have happened anyway and we would likely have won the match. When you are playing a team who is completely steadfast on their gameplan, one goal is usually enough to ruin it (or regain it, as it were). That's what happened to us on Sunday and to Brazil against Mexico and Uruguay.

chelsea_fan

20-07-2007, 02:14 AM

U/20...all hail to maximillano morales! we are in the finals! chile lost their cool, german ref was abit too strict , killed the game, atleast 60 fouls in the game..
i was at the mexico game. :D
yacob & the skipper suspended for the finals against the czech.
hopefully we could win the title to heal some of the pain from the copa disasterous final.
AGUERO AGUERO AGUERO! :D

Toone10

20-07-2007, 05:10 PM

There is a hot debate about his successor in Argentina, but for the time being many of the names being mentioned can't even be taken seriously because of said disgrace. I thought Gonzalo Rodriguez was an interesting choice but he is set to miss his second straight season to a recurrence of the knee injury that kept him out last year. Burdisso deserves a shot. Fazio from the u20 is a very interesting player with his imposing 1.95m stature, deceptive quickness, and exquisite skill for a defender. He is indeed from the famed Ferrocarril Oeste school that has produced many of Argentina's greatest ever defenders. But save him for future consideration as he has never played a minute of first division football

I bet on Burdisso

west501

24-07-2007, 03:06 AM

proud of the u20 boys for showing once again the depth and quality of our youth system

agüero - independiente
zárate, escudero - vélez sarsfield
moralez, yacob, romero - racing club
piatti - estudiantes
cahais, banega - boca
di maría - rosario
fazio - ferro

conspicuously absent was river plate, because higuaín refused the callup :eek:

akd

24-07-2007, 05:27 AM

Whoah10115

24-07-2007, 05:53 AM

boy, what a rugged day for the Copa America team. I want to say a whole lot of those players that played today need to go, after their preformance today. Fact is, guys like Veron who dont know how to win, cannot be allowed a place on a team where they will be looked apon for leadership, to do something that for the most part they've never done in their careers. Zanetti also needs to go, Crespo if he can recover from injury, could imo be a valuable substitute. Pato should be slowly phased out of the picture. As good as he was for Boca, i have yet to see him recreate that magic for the Albisceleste.

The under 20's played much better. They had some crisp passing plays, and shut down the Mexican offense. I look forward to watching them in the next game versus Chile. :)

Zanetti shoudl go? The best RB in the world and arguably Argentina's best player after Riquelme? Zanetti (And Ayala if he hadn't retired) could play forever. I'd take them. And Crespo is as good as ever. Of course Tevez is younger so that might have to start happening. But if Crespo was to stay around and play like he's playing now Argentina would be fine. Pato has been very solid for Argentina. If they wanna bring up the young boy that wouldn't be a bad idea though. It should happen gradually though.

Veron is pretty much done with Argentina. He didn't play badly at all, but that Argentina formation was simply stupid. Pekerman's midfield was too clogged up and it didn't even maximize the individual characteristics of the Central Midfielders (Cambiasso and Veron). Cambiasso and and Mascherano should hold down the midfield, with Cambiasso given more freedom offensively. Also, Argentina for so long has played with 3CB they should just do it now. Ayala is retired and Milito is very similar to him. Burdisso to his right and Heinze to his left and you got a wall on defense.

Zanetti needs to go??? and why would that be?? He was by far our best player alongside Mascherano during the tournament!!

Anyways....We played beautiful football (jogo bonito) and for what???? To come out first losers! The only solution is to re-build the team from the back up. Our defense has been crap throughout the tournament, it is just that we were able to score and that helped to mask the big fracture in the back. Once we met a big rival it really showed. We also need midfielders who are faster and can hook up better with both Tevez and Messi. We also need a big forward upfront. Maybe Bergessio?? Maybe Pavone??

Riquelme, then Zanetti, then Mascherano ;)

And Crespo was amazing but unfortunately got hurt.

BTH, I haven't read all the posts but I hope no one blames Ayala for that own goal.

riostrioff

28-07-2007, 04:59 AM

Burdisso, Garay, Milito and Gonzalo Rod if he recovers or Diaz or even Demichelis. we have a pretty solid pool for CB, and most of these players are pretty good in the air too.

RB we need wingbacks, especially since both Burdisso and Garay are capable of playing the sit home type of fullback on the right. Ferrari and Zanetti are probably our best bets right now, in the future when Zanetti and Ibarra retired, we'll need to find someone. Zebaleta? maybe too defensive. We need someone that could get width.

LB is pretty troublesome. Apparently Zanetti can play left too, but more dedicated wingback option on the left we only have Clemente Rod and Sorin? Heinze has good in box defense and control over the left corner, but not very mobile. Bottinelli is possibility though, then Pinola, but Pinola is dangerous to have in international tourney.

chauchey

28-07-2007, 05:15 AM

Zanetti was good, you're absolutely right...but i'm not convinced he knows how to win when the chips are all on the table. I'm not saying he's a bad player, quite the opposite. But I havent seen him hoist a champions league trophy, or a WC, or a Copa America, and aside from Inter essenstially being given the Scudetto the last two years, i havent seen the club team he's captained all these years win anything either. He's a classy guy, but his teams underachieve. When you've only got one game to make good, i'd rather take a guy who might be slightly less talented, but who's teams always win.

riostrioff

28-07-2007, 06:53 AM

ya, the tractor has a tendency to run the ball into dead ends. And as long as the fullback is pushing for width, no matter who, it's a temperary defensive reliability issue. In that sense, Zanetti is very good for his age, he can recover fast enough and run all day.
Sorin is kinda the same type of work horse, and he's better on crosses. Now Veron is gone, if Sorin can still run, I think we should have him back. Getting width on the left is more suitable to Roman too. Since Roman leans left all the time, width on the right can't be utilized efficiently because all the attacking players are with Roman. The first goal in Copa final was basically because of that problem. Roman told Heinze to push when Zanetti was still hanging high, we ended up without anyone in the back to deal with Brazilian lob.

lazymagician

30-07-2007, 02:56 AM

I was just thinking about Sorin too. where is he playing now? i could prob just google it, but cant be bothered lol. I loved his energy in the WC, he never gave up and would run up and down the entire 90 mins...very similar to Zanetti imo, but i think i liked Sorin better, he was more accurate with his balls, remember the goal he set up for Maxi in the game against Mexico? that was awesome.

I still dont know what happened in the copa final, but at least we cant blame the coach this time lol, on the day our players let us down this time. I think our future looks bright so i'm not worried, after seeing our U-20 team, i think we'll be fine. Who knows if we'll win anything in the future, but if our youth system continues to produce such talent, who knows, maybe someday our senior team will get lucky too.

riostrioff

30-07-2007, 04:30 PM

Sorin played for HSV last year, I saw couple of his games on TV, he was still in good shape. Don't know how long the contract was, but he looked good, I think if he choose to stay in germany HSV will resign him. He's jewish you know, Germany nowadays likes to have jews :D

west501

30-07-2007, 11:35 PM

as much as I love sorín, I think his cycle is over..he put everything on the pitch and honoured the armband in 2006 and should have lifted the cup
much like piojo lópez and kily gonzález before him, juampi was a role-player..a squad player whose initial inclusion may have lifted many eyebrows, but like maxi rodríguez in 2006, by the end of the day he was indispensable to the tactical scheme because of his heart and will to win

pupi zanetti and ratón ayala are different, they're clearly the skilled players who are/were first choice for their respective positions, with the former being imo the best of his generation and both being amongst the most deserving players of a world cup in the last 10 years
it was the right time for ayala to retire with a glorious win in the world cup and/or the copa america..neither happened and like he said the decision had been made from long before, he didn't deserve to go out that way but that's football
zanetti has not retired and I think he will continue to be the best option until he does, I would even have him as captain

chauchey

31-07-2007, 01:32 AM

with winning at the U20 level so much in the last decade and a half, i cant help but think that our time at the sr. mens level is coming soon. I'm very excited about Di Maria, and Morales did very well too. You cant factor out Aguero, but as good as he is i think he'll always be playing second fiddle to Messi and Tevez. Of course, a long tournament leaves playing time for everyone. :)

riostrioff

31-07-2007, 09:23 PM

http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/07/31/um/01468749.html

if you want to see changes in the Argie NT, then vote yes for diego.
It's not about whether maradona is fit to coach the NT, it's about making changes. He's the only one able to gain certain tactical freedom from AFA.
Or Coco will just keep sitting there and keep taking orders from Grondona.

As explained by Diego, it's impossible to install a technical assistant position on Basile's Panel. He is the kind of person not to take advise from any other tacticians. If Diego can replace him, we'll have the Olympic to evaluate his ability to coach the NT. If he isn't fit enough there can still be further modifications. The important issue here is, this move will kick Basile out of the office and initiate changes.

I made a rough translation of what Maradona said (http://albicelestesforever.blogspot.com/2007/07/vote-for-diego.html).

chauchey

31-07-2007, 11:33 PM

basile has done very well for Boca, and also did well for the NT the last time he was there. I dont see why he cant again. If Grondona is the problem(never heard of him before) then get rid of him. While Maradona is larger than life, and nobody would be able to tell him what to do, he doesnt have the heart(and by heart i mean a physical heart) that is capable of handleing the pressure. He's likely to die if he works for any length of time(3-8 years). I'm still pissed over Pekerman resigning, and of all three just mentioned feel he was our best bet to win a WC. GRRRR!!! lol.

riostrioff

31-07-2007, 11:49 PM

Julio Grondona has been the AFA president for the past 27 years.

chauchey

01-08-2007, 02:38 AM

....i see. well then, he's a bit of an 'institution' then isnt he... :rollseye: Well, hopefully Basile will grow some balls, because i dont see Maradona killing himself with the stress of doing something he was never trained to do. :(

west501

01-08-2007, 03:36 AM

Basile's problem is that he has a one track mind and that the 0-5 against Colombia became the defining moment of his first national team
it was a carbon copy of the last copa america final (though I mean no disrespect to Colombia's greatest ever side)
before the match started it wasn't a question of if we would win, it was a question of by how many
but it was a game won from the bench by a very tactically astute Maturana who played the counterattack to perfection
Basile blamed the players, Goycoechea lost his starting place, Diego was recalled back into the side, and the rest is history
would we let Diego back into the team after another high profile Basile failure?
it would be an ironic recipe for disaster
I can't see Diego as a coach
I could think of a thousand scenarios of a mentally unstable man leading a group of kids who worship him..needless to say I think it would be a spectacular failure that could ruin player's careers

riostrioff

01-08-2007, 06:43 AM

I don't think Basile is that stubborn strategically. At least I didn't...
In the Copa match against Paraguay for example, when our offense had problems breaking down the opponents, he was willing to go to a different strategy and bring more options onto the field.
Why he chose to stick to an offensive strategy against Brazil is a mystery to me. And I could only guess that he was under pressure from Grondona to play the 4-3-1-2. AFA always wants offensive football because it's attractive and makes money regardless losing or winning. Playing a strategy that's weak against counter attacks and unreliable versus african style forwards when we knew we were going to get shut down in the air was just blatantly stupid.

I also didn't fully understand the Veron choice. Veron was chosen over Maxi because he could provide a secondary playmaker option when Roman gets contained. But why the hell did he play Veron against a team so strong in the air. Ineffectiveness of Veron's lobs was so obvious that it's almost a crime to put him on the field against Brazil that day. Even if we had to play 4-3-1-2, it would be better to have a wide midfielder to corporate with Zanetti and utilize the extra width. Brazil will let you gain width because they always play the same 4-2-4, regardless of players, it's always a congestion in the middle.
If Lucho wasn't reliable enough, then why not Aimar? A mobile CM would also give more lateral support to Riquelme and the forwards, provide more passing opportunities.

I thnk Veron was a political choice. He's estudiante homegrown, really no surprise if playing him was part of Grondona's order to Basile.
A tournament winning team needs flexibility and adaptability. We can't acquire that unless the NT coach is a figure that could stand up against Don Julio and his mafia. Basically there are 3 people that have the charisma: Menotti, Bilardo and Diego. Bilardo is Grondona's heir apparent. Grondona won't allow him to have direct control over the NT untill, well if he's dead. Menotti is left wing and is like an exiled prince. Allowing a person connected to Menotti that will follow orders is as far as Grondona willing to go, and that's why Basile is coaching.
The Newell's coaches like Pekerman and Bielsa were attempts of people without the necessary charisma to take on the NT job. Bielsa did what Grondona told him to do and lost, just like Basile, that was acceptable. Grondona simply gave the job to another Newell coach, Pekerman. Pekerman resisted Grondona's control, and he was out of the position before he lost (Grondona telling Diego he was getting the job after S&M match).

Diego is the only hope man. It's not about his coaching ability.

chauchey

01-08-2007, 09:19 AM

i really dont think thats going to happen. If Grondona has this much power, we'll simply have to resign ourselves to waiting for another WC untill 2 things happen. Messi can do what Diego did in '86, or he passes on and a different director comes in. :p

west501

01-08-2007, 12:10 PM

I think the real 'class of 86' coaches deserve a chance
and just about all of them have since fallen out with diego
what pekerman taught the team is that nothing matters besides the tournament and what happened against Germany remains a mystery and a disgrace

it's interesting to see how the tables have turned
WC78-90 we made 3/4 finals and won two, while Brazil who probably had better sides in the last 3 of those cups (definitely the last 2) never made it past the quarterfinals*
WC94-06 Brazil made 3/4 finals and won two, while Argentina probably had better sides in 94,98,&02 and never made it past the quarterfinals

it's time to get back to our winning ways, I hope the messi generation wins at least 2 world cups including the one in Brazil if it's held there in 2014

*they played in the third place game in 78 but the format was different

Vip

01-08-2007, 06:25 PM

The first goal in Copa final was basically because of that problem. Roman told Heinze to push when Zanetti was still hanging high, we ended up without anyone in the back to deal with Brazilian lob.

I have read this from you elsewhere, and still am not sure what you mean. Messi made a too short pass to Mascherano, from right to center, in midfield, and there is where Wagner Love intercepted the ball and started the counter attack that led to the long ball to Baptista. If the ball was on the right sideline ... where does Roman and Heinze fit? Roman was near to mascherano too. :confused:

Also, don't mean to contradict you, but how do you associate Bilardo and Grondona? As far as I can remember, they aren't in a fight, but there is a considerable distance between both. Bilardo has been trying to get the coaching job again for some years now ... and NADA! And now also wants to take over AFA, supported by all those oppossed to Grondona. I read this as opposition to Grondona.

As to Maxi Rodriguez, he himself asked not to be in the NT in order to get fit again after the lengthy injury he suffered. From the reporters "close" to Basile, I have heard that Maxi would had been a starter for Copa America had he made it.

Veron ... did Grondona impose him? I know one thing ... Basile deosn't accept ANY impositions. He can be stubborn with his playing philosophy, the best players have to play, but from that, going thru the level that Veron showed at Estudiantes this past year ... I don't see, have not heard nor has it been implied in the vast Argentine media I follow ... Veron being imposed to Basile? :confused:

Also ... from where did you get the conexion between Newells and Pekerman? :confused:

.

riostrioff

01-08-2007, 08:37 PM

I have read this from you elsewhere, and still am not sure what you mean. Messi made a too short pass to Mascherano, from right to center, in midfield, and there is where Wagner Love intercepted the ball and started the counter attack that led to the long ball to Baptista. If the ball was on the right sideline ... where does Roman and Heinze fit? Roman was near to mascherano too. :confused:

it was a left to right cross that resulted in the goal. No one was in position to deal with it because both Zanetti and Heinze were pushed up, and both CB were far up near mascherano.
If you watch the sequence leading up to the goal. Before messi lost the ball in midfield, there was Riquelme telling Heinze to push. Before that Heinze was pretty much our only defender at home.

Also, don't mean to contradict you, but how do you associate Bilardo and Grondona? As far as I can remember, they aren't in a fight, but there is a considerable distance between both. Bilardo has been trying to get the coaching job again for some years now ... and NADA! And now also wants to take over AFA, supported by all those oppossed to Grondona. I read this as opposition to Grondona.

I don't think that's the case. Blatter and Bilardo work together, as demonstrated via Blatter's European promotion of Bilardo.
It's known Blatter and Grondona are on the same boat. So it's illogical to claim that Grondona is opposed to Bilardo's succession.
However, even this is the case, Grondona is not going to let Bilardo have any actual control over AFA or the NT till at least when himself had stepped down.

As to Maxi Rodriguez, he himself asked not to be in the NT in order to get fit again after the lengthy injury he suffered. From the reporters "close" to Basile, I have heard that Maxi would had been a starter for Copa America had he made it.

Lucho's performance in the friendlies b4 copa was clearly unsatisfying, while Maxi was coming back from injury and almost immediately (2nd game) making an impact in atletico. Even if Veron was necessary, that claim you stated still doesn't explain Lucho over Maxi.

Veron ... did Grondona impose him? I know one thing ... Basile deosn't accept ANY impositions. He can be stubborn with his playing philosophy, the best players have to play, but from that, going thru the level that Veron showed at Estudiantes this past year ... I don't see, have not heard nor has it been implied in the vast Argentine media I follow ... Veron being imposed to Basile? :confused:

The only coach did not accept ANY imposition from Grondona was Pekerman. And Pekerman was practically fired before his campaign even finished. Not only that, he's on exile, and his friends (Hugo Tocalli) are still getting pwned by Grondona. So from another perspective, Basile gets to stay even after losing on such a high note is proof that he had given in to the pressure from AFA.

Also ... from where did you get the conexion between Newells and Pekerman? :confused:

Marcelo Bielsa was hired on Pekerman's recommendation. And don't think I have to explain Bielsa's tie to newell.
Also going back to Maxi. He was Newell's homegrown. Pekerman chose to exclude all the estudiante and veron tied players in 06 WorldCup and used Maxi.

from wiki:

When the national coach Daniel Passarella resigned after the 1998 FIFA World Cup, Pekerman was offered his position. He declined, assuming instead the position of General Manager of all national teams. Marcelo Bielsa was hired as coach on Pekerman's recommendation, and remained in charge until after Argentina's gold medal performance in the 2004 Summer Olympics.

Vip

01-08-2007, 09:32 PM

It was a left to right cross that resulted in the goal. No one was in position to deal with it because both Zanetti and Heinze were pushed up, and both CB were far up near mascherano.
If you watch the sequence leading up to the goal. Before messi lost the ball in midfield, there was Riquelme telling Heinze to push. Before that Heinze was pretty much our only defender at home.

Sorry m8. I just, painfully enuff, re-watched the 1st goal to have a fresher look at what my memory told me. Just before the 3 minute mark, there is a yellow deserving foul on Riquelme's thigh. The team pushes forward and is Milito who starts the free kick. NOWHERE is there an image of Roman asking Heinze to push forward.

The ball transits to the right to Zanetti, goes back to Milito who sends a longer pass to the right to Messi. There, Zanetti pushes forward to overlap Messi and become an option. Messi chooses to pass to Masche, and W.Love intercepts the ball. It is played to Elano, who is soft pressured by Roman in the back and by Mascherano, on Argentina's left of the field. Zanetti never sprints back, simply jogs and will be actively out of the rest of the play. When Elano crosses, he looks to place the ball behind the last defender, Ayala, and towards where Zanetti should had been. This is a normal situation to any defense. Both Milito and Heinze were close to being online with Ayala ... Heinze facing and waiting for Elano to try to push forward. Heinze is perfectly positioned. It is Ayala who first doesn't react to the deep cross from RIGHT TO LEFT. And then gives way too much space to Baptista.

I suggest you re-watch the entire sequence. Heinze is not out of position and Roman never pushed Heinze while Zanetti was gone.

I don't think that's the case. Blatter and Bilardo work together, as demonstrated via Blatter's European promotion of Bilardo.
It's known Blatter and Grondona are on the same boat. So it's illogical to claim that Grondona is opposed to Bilardo's succession.
However, even this is the case, Grondona is not going to let Bilardo have any actual control over AFA or the NT till at least when himself had stepped down.

Man ... do you know who elects the AFA President? What does Blatter have to do with it. It is the club Presidents who elect the AFA President. I love conspiracy theories myself, but ...

Lucho's performance in the friendlies b4 copa was clearly unsatisfying, while Maxi was coming back from injury and almost immediately (2nd game) making an impact in atletico. Even if Veron was necessary, that claim you stated still doesn't explain Lucho over Maxi.

Maxi asked NOT TO GO as he needed to prepare himself during his vacation in order to return to his better form. He did play for Atleti, yet, he WAS NOT in his best form yet. If Maxi is not going, Lucho was called. Had Maxi not stepped down, understandably, Veron would still had gone and not Lucho.

The only coach did not accept ANY imposition from Grondona was Pekerman. And Pekerman was practically fired before his campaign even finished. Not only that, he's on exile, and his friends (Hugo Tocalli) are still getting pwned by Grondona. So from another perspective, Basile gets to stay even after losing on such a high note is proof that he had given in to the pressure from AFA.

No my friend. No!

The only coach that has recieved any pressure, at the senior NT level was Pekerman before WC06, when Grondona himself declared that he wanted to look at/revise the list before it was officially given to the press. Neither Basile in 94, nor Pasarella in 98 (remember Argentina lost Redondo due to el Kaiser's military rules for the players), nor Bielsa were ever pressured to place players.

And for sure Basile was not pressured players, nor the fact he still remains as coach means he conceded to Grondona. Basile will coach until the end of WC 2010 because he has a contract ... he will learn from his mistakes against Brazil and will object any "imposition" of a NT general manager above him.

I listen to 7 hrs of 3 diffferent radio shows daily, while working. And record them in case I might have missed something ... that way I can go back and double check. For years now. All the reporters close to Basile, would give you the same description I just did.

Marcelo Bielsa was hired on Pekerman's recommendation. And don't think I have to explain Bielsa's tie to newell.
Also going back to Maxi. He was Newell's homegrown. Pekerman chose to exclude all the estudiante and veron tied players in 06 WorldCup and used Maxi.

And ... ??? :confused: Bielsa was working at Velez too. And playing beautiful football, with innovative schemes. The entire football industry recognized his dedication and work at both Newells and Velez. That is why Pekerman chose him, after declining himself to be the coach. That is hardly ... and by far, a Newells tie! Don't forget it was Bianchi who was offered the job before any of the 2.

The fact that after Bielsa took over, both of them worked closely doesn't mean there was a Newells tie. It is because they are 2 professionals in front of the NT, Bielsa, and in front of all NTs, Pekerman. It was to help in introducing some of the YWC champs, which Pekerman knew perfectly well, to the adult NT. They share one thing: HARD WORK. Try searching on Wiki for Pekerman. :o

Maxi was chosen because of his quality and Pekerman's belief in him. Veron was out of the picture because of Sorin ... Sorin being Pekerman's closest player as he was YWC champions captain and ... many say the trust comes from them sharing the same religion. :mad:

.

riostrioff

02-08-2007, 12:19 AM

Sorry m8. I just, painfully enuff, re-watched the 1st goal to have a fresher look at what my memory told me. Just before the 3 minute mark, there is a yellow deserving foul on Riquelme's thigh. The team pushes forward and is Milito who starts the free kick. NOWHERE is there an image of Roman asking Heinze to push forward.

Roman waved at heinze right when he took that restart 2 minutes into the game. He told Heinze to get width, and then ran a negative route when Heinze had possession to get him to play higher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIeMs8X689s

The sequence before the first goal. Your description was accurate but you didn't explain why Heinze wasn't on the flank covering Elano. Mascherano lost the ball from Messi's pass, then went overlapping Cambiasso to try stopping the cross on the left. Heinze was nowhere near.

I know it hurts:mad:, but if you watch the video around 4 minutes, when the ball was lost on the right, Roman was pushed all the way up to Brazil's defense line, and Heinze was going towards the middle near the half line instead of staying on the flank. Then when Brazil took possession, he first tried to recover to his defensive position on the wing, then realized Elano was going to cross from right there...

I didn't mention the 2nd goal. But the second goal was basically the samething. Milito went up, Heinze went to the middle again and left Daniel Alvez open. Milito then attempted to cover the wing by switching with Heinze and he wasn't fast enough to deal with the cross.

Man ... do you know who elects the AFA President? What does Blatter have to do with it. It is the club Presidents who elect the AFA President. I love conspiracy theories myself, but ...

AFA's business is directly tied with FIFA's business. Where does AFA get its money? It get it from TV broadcasts and NT appearances. The imagine of AFA in not just Argentina, but the entire south american region is established and backed by FIFA.
Bilardo was presented to the European community by Blatter just couple month ago man.

Maxi asked NOT TO GO as he needed to prepare himself during his vacation in order to return to his better form. He did play for Atleti, yet, he WAS NOT in his best form yet. If Maxi is not going, Lucho was called. Had Maxi not stepped down, understandably, Veron would still had gone and not Lucho.

Maxi played 6 games after coming out of injury. first 3 games he was put in later. AgainstEspanyol he didn't do much. Then he made an assist against Gatafe despite coming on at 81st minute. The last 2 matches he scored 3 goals . In the game against Celta it was clear that Maxi was in form.

And for sure Basile was not pressured players, nor the fact he still remains as coach means he conceded to Grondona. Basile will coach until the end of WC 2010 because he has a contract ... he will learn from his mistakes against Brazil and will object any "imposition" of a NT general manager above him.

I wouldn't be so sure on this. Basile played all the people Grondona cared, Played the strategy AFA wanted to see, there's not much more he could of done to make Grondona happier. And the contract, it's as simple as forcing the coach to hand in his resignation.

I listen to 7 hrs of 3 diffferent radio shows daily, while working. And record them in case I might have missed something ... that way I can go back and double check. For years now. All the reporters close to Basile, would give you the same description I just did.

I'm not questioning your knowledge of these affairs. But how the information is interpreted could vary. Some the choices he made in the Copa didn't make logical sense. And I guess most of all, I just can't believe the result against Brazil was the outcome of best possible strategical planning from Basile.

Don't forget it was Bianchi who was offered the job before any of the 2.
But Pekerman was chosen instead of Bianchi, and Pekerman isn't Velez tied:)
Raul Gamez was tied to Velez, I don't think that factor was ignorable.

Maxi was chosen because of his quality and Pekerman's belief in him. Veron was out of the picture because of Sorin ... Sorin being Pekerman's closest player as he was YWC champions captain and ... many say the trust comes from them sharing the same religion. :mad:
You could say Veron was out of picture because of Sorin, or Sorin was in the picture because Zanetti was linked to Veron. 2 completely different concepts that shared results.

west501

02-08-2007, 03:46 AM

Some the choices he made in the Copa didn't make logical sense. And I guess most of all, I just can't believe the result against Brazil was the outcome of best possible strategical planning from Basile.

I know it's painful mate
it was one of the greatest upsets in the history of sport
but we just have to admit that the game was won fairly by Brazil on the pitch because we were tactically killed by Dunga's antifootball......again :eek:
Dunga deserves credit for pulling off a win against all odds.....again :eek:......call it beginner's luck but don't use the luxury of hindsight to construct a backroom drama
not saying there isn't one, but things were going just fine in the copa and we should have won despite anything that happened off the pitch, or on it for that matter
we have to move on from this and not dwell on this national embarrassment

Vip

02-08-2007, 04:31 AM

Roman waved at heinze right when he took that restart 2 minutes into the game. He told Heinze to get width, and then ran a negative route when Heinze had possession to get him to play higher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIeMs8X689s

The sequence before the first goal. Your description was accurate but you didn't explain why Heinze wasn't on the flank covering Elano. Mascherano lost the ball from Messi's pass, then went overlapping Cambiasso to try stopping the cross on the left. Heinze was nowhere near.

I know it hurts:mad:, but if you watch the video around 4 minutes, when the ball was lost on the right, Roman was pushed all the way up to Brazil's defense line, and Heinze was going towards the middle near the half line instead of staying on the flank. Then when Brazil took possession, he first tried to recover to his defensive position on the wing, then realized Elano was going to cross from right there...

Football is dynamic. Whatever happened 2 minutes prior has nothing to do with the ball posesion once Roman was fouled.

Heinze was not out of position in the first goal. He was just were he needed to be, as Elano was too deep back. The entire defense had pushed up as Argentina had control of the ball. Messi's careless pass caused the transition. And Ayala should had handled, or delayed Baptista's actions ...

I don't see any wrong doing whatsoever in Heinze in that goal.

Maxi played 6 games after coming out of injury. first 3 games he was put in later. AgainstEspanyol he didn't do much. Then he made an assist against Gatafe despite coming on at 81st minute. The last 2 matches he scored 3 goals . In the game against Celta it was clear that Maxi was in form.

Are you reading what I wrote? :confused: Maxi himself asked not to be included. What does Basile have to do? It is understandable that he would ask not to take part of the Copa America.

I wouldn't be so sure on this. Basile played all the people Grondona cared, Played the strategy AFA wanted to see, there's not much more he could of done to make Grondona happier. And the contract, it's as simple as forcing the coach to hand in his resignation.

I'm not questioning your knowledge of these affairs. But how the information is interpreted could vary. Some the choices he made in the Copa didn't make logical sense. And I guess most of all, I just can't believe the result against Brazil was the outcome of best possible strategical planning from Basile.

I know Basile enough to know he likes to play these days: 4 defenders, 3 mids a playmaker and 2 forwards. He did so at Boca winning every title he coached. He had a sizeable squad at his disposal to use the players and systems he wanted. Yet he always used the same. And has a stubborness with playing the same 11 in EVERY game. Despite tiredness, at home or away. All those reporters at Boca became the reporters for the NT, as they had a good relation with the coaching staff. I have followed every single day of information coming from his camp since mid 2005.

Basile's style of play is to play with the most skillful players and to control the ball. Take the initiative. He lacks defensive dsicipline thou.

So in short ... I wouldn't had expected anything different in this Copa America from Basile. The loss against Brazil hurts, and should make him understand that if he lined up a more balanced team defensively like he did against France, BECAUSE OF LACK OF PLAYERS TO DO OTHERWISE, and worked, then he should use the same against teams like Brazil ... in the future.

This is why I say that Basile has lined-up his team, how HE LIKE HIS TEAMS TO PLAY.

But Pekerman was chosen instead of Bianchi, and Pekerman isn't Velez tied:)
Raul Gamez was tied to Velez, I don't think that factor was ignorable.

For 2006, after Bielsa was given the chance again, he quit and Bianchi was offered the job. Well, if Bianchi didn't accept the NT coaching job, someone else had to take it. And Grondona chose Pekerman, as he was already part of the NTs for 4 years, plus the years at youth level.

You could say Veron was out of picture because of Sorin, or Sorin was in the picture because Zanetti was linked to Veron. 2 completely different concepts that shared results.

I got lost. :confused: Sorin plays the left, Zanetti the right. They played together thruout the Copa America '04 and then in WCQ06. Veron was already out of the NT. You are saying that Zanetti didn't go because he was friends with Veron, further dragging the Sorin-Veron soap-opera? To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised. But I haven't heard it, read it or watched it anywhere.

.

riostrioff

02-08-2007, 07:32 PM

Football is dynamic. Whatever happened 2 minutes prior has nothing to do with the ball posesion once Roman was fouled.

Heinze was not out of position in the first goal. He was just were he needed to be, as Elano was too deep back. The entire defense had pushed up as Argentina had control of the ball. Messi's careless pass caused the transition. And Ayala should had handled, or delayed Baptista's actions ...

I don't see any wrong doing whatsoever in Heinze in that goal.

Take a look at this picture (http://bp2.blogger.com/_XgqoRebQifo/RrIkzZANA0I/AAAAAAAAAA8/LC6FJmVVbU0/s1600-h/lb.jpg), that's what Heinze did wrong. Come on, you play football, this is a basic concept. LB needs to cover wide. Unless you're making the "tighten up corner" type of offside trap, which isn't the case here.

I understand the defense line pressing idea in 4-3-1-2, aka. keep the distance between midfield and backline at optimal. (btw, not all strategies requires such). And it is one of the biggest problems of 4-3-1-2.

Are you reading what I wrote? :confused: Maxi himself asked not to be included. What does Basile have to do? It is understandable that he would ask not to take part of the Copa America.

I read what you said. But I disregarded it because it's a common excuse. Not too far from a team claiming they were not interested in a player when in reality they failed to purchase him.

I know Basile enough to know he likes to play these days: 4 defenders, 3 mids a playmaker and 2 forwards. He did so at Boca winning every title he coached. He had a sizeable squad at his disposal to use the players and systems he wanted. Yet he always used the same. And has a stubborness with playing the same 11 in EVERY game. Despite tiredness, at home or away. All those reporters at Boca became the reporters for the NT, as they had a good relation with the coaching staff. I have followed every single day of information coming from his camp since mid 2005.

I'm aware that Basile likes 4-3-1-2. (But he didn't always use the same thing ok, he used 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1/4-2-1-3 at times too. Having Ledesma and Gago playing DM togather. )

In the Copa america, when we needed a goal against Paraguay, Basile switch into 4-2-3-1 eventhough it looked more defensive on paper, and he got the goal! But in an more important match, he was unwilling to do the same, wtf.

Basile's style of play is to play with the most skillful players and to control the ball. Take the initiative. He lacks defensive dsicipline thou.
In 4-3-1-2 the 2 outside midfielders and the 2 forwards have lateral freedom (as long as they're supported by Roman), and very often exercise this freedom by concentrating around certain regions of the pitch. Therefore our midfield isn't very well spaced from left to right, and the backline needs to press up to provide lateral definition for the entire formation.
This leaves us vulnerable to counter attacks. Against a team like Brazil it's even more dangerous because they're almost guaranteed to monopolize in the air.

I don't think Basile lacks defensive discipline, he was a defender himself.
It's the strategical choice he made that's unreliable defensively. So the question remains, why did he choose to go with 4-3-1-2 while he had demonstrated that the group of players could play more defensive strategies like 4-2-3-1.

I also disagree with your opinion on Basile's approach. I think he chose the strategy first, then filled in the necessary players for each of the positions. He left himself very little flexibility by doing so, because he didn't have the best possible combination of players from the country, merely best possible combination FOR THAT PARTICULAR STRATEGY. And that's why he had to play the same thing every game.

Every opponent is different. Using one set of rules against all is idiotic. You can achieve limited success against crappy opponents, but in WC and Copa, sooner or later you'll face a formidable enemy.

This is not a problem solely associated with Basile, For more than 10 years it had haunted our NT in various competitions. You can call it choking, I call it unable to beat good teams.

You are saying that Zanetti didn't go because he was friends with Veron, further dragging the Sorin-Veron soap-opera? To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised. But I haven't heard it, read it or watched it anywhere.

That's what I've heard and I believe the assumption was logical.
Zanetti's absence directly correlated to the inclusion of Scaloni and Coloccini, When Burdisso went down we were screwed.

chauchey

02-08-2007, 10:43 PM

That's what I've heard and I believe the assumption was logical.
Zanetti's absence directly correlated to the inclusion of Scaloni and Coloccini, When Burdisso went down we were screwed.great post btw. I dont think we where screwed when Burdisso went down. Big blow, not screwed. We where screwed when
a) we got germany in the round of 8(fifa wherent going to let them loose nomatter the cost)
b)Pato got hurt and had to leave
c)Roman was subbed out(the final nail in the coffin)

You're right that our defense suffered a big blow, but its a team sport and we where good enough to play all 7 games. Really, it was only option 'a' that means much. Nobody was going to beat germany unless germany had a chance at placeing in the top 3, even with a loss. Simple as that. :(

riostrioff

02-08-2007, 11:03 PM

great post btw. I dont think we where screwed when Burdisso went down. Big blow, not screwed. We where screwed when
a) we got germany in the round of 8(fifa wherent going to let them loose nomatter the cost)
b)Pato got hurt and had to leave
c)Roman was subbed out(the final nail in the coffin)

You're right that our defense suffered a big blow, but its a team sport and we where good enough to play all 7 games. Really, it was only option 'a' that means much. Nobody was going to beat germany unless germany had a chance at placeing in the top 3, even with a loss. Simple as that. :(

I try not to think that way :mad:
The truth is, I was far more disappointed by the Korea/Japan WC.
The 'highest level' competitions are all corrupted through out the globe. Look anywhere and you'll see the same. NBA, NFL, Formula1, Cycling, Olympic sports, UEFA, WC...

Vip

03-08-2007, 02:42 AM

Take a look at this picture (http://bp2.blogger.com/_XgqoRebQifo/RrIkzZANA0I/AAAAAAAAAA8/LC6FJmVVbU0/s1600-h/lb.jpg), that's what Heinze did wrong. Come on, you play football, this is a basic concept. LB needs to cover wide. Unless you're making the "tighten up corner" type of offside trap, which isn't the case here.

I understand the defense line pressing idea in 4-3-1-2, aka. keep the distance between midfield and backline at optimal. (btw, not all strategies requires such). And it is one of the biggest problems of 4-3-1-2.

Well, your diagram doesn't reflect what happened in that play. When W.Love opens the ball to the right, towards Elano, Heinze was 10 yards back in front of him, close enough to the sideline. Had Elano attempted to push forward, he would have had to dribble passed Heinze. He chose to cross AS SOON AS HE CROSSED MIDFIELD, and he did 100% accurately. If Elano tries that cross 100 more times, he won't get it as accurate as it did. Are you implying that the problem was not blocking Elano's cross? Common m8, that is not serious. There was 1 forward for Brazil, Baptista, and 3 defenders! Because holding Baptista would had given enough time to allow Milito and Heinze to push back and close in.

What tacticists, like you seem to be, don't realize is that the game is not a rigid arrow drawing game. Players know what their responsabilities are. Prior to Elano's cross, it was the right MF, Veron, who was a yard away from Baptista. It is merit from Dunga to have asked his player to cross the ball from side to side, specially to the side where there was no right back, as in this case. This is the way to beat a 3 man defense, which in many ways, when Zanetti pushes forward, Argentina's defense does become a 3 man defense.

I have re-watched this goal too many times now to know that there is no other place where Heinze should had been. He HAD NOT PUSHED FORWARD as you claimed he did, by Roman's instructions. The RB and LB were not both out of position. It was only Zanetti. And this is normal. It was Ayala's task to intercept the cross and to press on Baptista once he couldn't intercept the cross. It was a 45 yard cross!

I suggest anyone having a doubt of this to have a look at the video again.

I read what you said. But I disregarded it because it's a common excuse. Not too far from a team claiming they were not interested in a player when in reality they failed to purchase him.

Well ... you shouldn't disregard the info that comes from EVERY reporter inside the NT. ;) You are entitled to your opinion, but also should acknowledge what is the vox populi.

Or do you need Maxi Rodriguez to write it?

I'm aware that Basile likes 4-3-1-2. (But he didn't always use the same thing ok, he used 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1/4-2-1-3 at times too. Having Ledesma and Gago playing DM togather. )

In the Copa america, when we needed a goal against Paraguay, Basile switch into 4-2-3-1 eventhough it looked more defensive on paper, and he got the goal! But in an more important match, he was unwilling to do the same, wtf.

In 4-3-1-2 the 2 outside midfielders and the 2 forwards have lateral freedom (as long as they're supported by Roman), and very often exercise this freedom by concentrating around certain regions of the pitch. Therefore our midfield isn't very well spaced from left to right, and the backline needs to press up to provide lateral definition for the entire formation.
This leaves us vulnerable to counter attacks. Against a team like Brazil it's even more dangerous because they're almost guaranteed to monopolize in the air.

Ledesma/Battaglia were always right midfielders WITH DEFENSIVE DUTIES. They are called mixed midfielders. Boca plays with 1 DM, two side midfielders and a playmaker. One of the side midfielders was Ledesma/Battaglia. The other Bilos/Cardozo. The DMs were Gago/Banega. The playmakers were Insua/Marino (for 5 games) and Roman.

You see. When you watch a game sitting in a stadium, you see the basic formation and how players move around. It is a dynamic game. The characteristics of the players give you a clue as to whay system is used. This is the most important issue. That is how you determine what the coach is trying to do.

It is not the same to play Riquelme along:

Aimar-Mascherano-Messi than to play Gago-Brana-Mascherano

The first is an offensively minded 4-3-1-2 ... the latter a completely defensive oriented 4-3-1-2 (this is Bianchi's Boca with Roman playing plus 2 forwards)

I give you this examples for you to start using names when describing your formations.

And when you need to go for a result, you move around your scheme or simply replace piece for piece. But that doesn't mean that a coach like Basile changes a formation from the go.

Remember Basile's phrase, if you ever heard it: " You like 4-4-2 ... you like the 0-0s" That is a sarcastic remark that re-inforces his believe in playing a 4-3-1-2 as basic, soul tactical belief. I hope this closes the debate.

I don't think Basile lacks defensive discipline, he was a defender himself.
It's the strategical choice he made that's unreliable defensively. So the question remains, why did he choose to go with 4-3-1-2 while he had demonstrated that the group of players could play more defensive strategies like 4-2-3-1.

I answered you this before. Basile likes to play a 4-3-1-2. It is in his choice of midfielders where he needs to adapt for the lack of defending. When the 2 outside midfielders don't have the pace to come back to defend and to push with explosion in attack, there is a problem against better teams.

Many would argue that Cambiasso is a defensive midfielder. That Veron is the right hand of Brana in Estudiantes as a 2nd holding midfielder. And Mascherano is THE defensive midfielder. The problem comes from the lack of pace in Cambiasso and Veron adding to Riquelme's. I won't forget the heat either ... even thou most have overlooked and others don't want to use it as an excuse.

It is true that the CA team played only 6 games together. Yet, they were never really challanged until the game with Brazil. But if there was a 2nd possible game against Brazil, with the same teams, I have no doubt that Argentina would be a lot more cautious in attack. And wouldn't be chasing the game as they did after just 4 minutes.

Basile has plenty of time to adjust and correct his team. When he didn't have any of the playmakers available, he went with a 4-4-2 against France. He knew he needed to defend more playing in Paris. I hope he realizes this now and changes his player selection, if he still is going to use a playmaker.

I also disagree with your opinion on Basile's approach. I think he chose the strategy first, then filled in the necessary players for each of the positions. He left himself very little flexibility by doing so, because he didn't have the best possible combination of players from the country, merely best possible combination FOR THAT PARTICULAR STRATEGY. And that's why he had to play the same thing every game.

Every opponent is different. Using one set of rules against all is idiotic. You can achieve limited success against crappy opponents, but in WC and Copa, sooner or later you'll face a formidable enemy.

This is not a problem solely associated with Basile, For more than 10 years it had haunted our NT in various competitions. You can call it choking, I call it unable to beat good teams.

That is the main criticism to Basile, that he doesn't adapt to others. It is either you propose the initiative, for which you need variations in attack ... read Holland, Argentina, or Brazil (except this Dunga's and WC94); or you wait back and figure out how to stop the opposition ... here you have to base your player selection to do a more defensive job. You objective is to destroy, not build.

The entire press in Argentina was happy with the players chosen. I didn't hear one complain. Not for Sosa, Ledesma or Saviola. Everyone agreed the best players were selected. MAXI EXCLUDED HIMSELF, so don't come back with that. What are your players missing in the team?

That's what I've heard and I believe the assumption was logical.
Zanetti's absence directly correlated to the inclusion of Scaloni and Coloccini, When Burdisso went down we were screwed.

Where did you hear it? Can you provide us with a link? 'Cause I never heard it, read it, saw it. Or is it "street talk"?

.

riostrioff

03-08-2007, 08:08 AM

Well, your diagram doesn't reflect what happened in that play.

screen shot of the moment (http://bp2.blogger.com/_XgqoRebQifo/RrKwnZANA1I/AAAAAAAAABE/JYcYAzysqus/s1600-h/moment.jpg)

as you can see, Heinze was going up like I drew in the previous diagram.
He should of went wide and leave Milito to cover the middle with Mascherano. In other words, relaying the men marking duties to players at the center.

There's whole set of theories behind this, but essentially the relaying of man marking duties is so the outside most opponent would always be covered by the left back and could not produce a deep run to cross the ball in without concerning offside.

I never claimed that if Heinze made the right choice he would of stopped the cross, Because his mistake before that put himself at a awkward position. He should of zone pressed to put pressure on the wing at first place instead of going to the middle.

This is the way to beat a 3 man defense, which in many ways, when Zanetti pushes forward, Argentina's defense does become a 3 man defense.

On the right, Zanetti was providing lateral support for Veron and Messi so he had to be out of defensive position. The 3 men left defend were therefore Ayala, Milito and Heinze. As seen in the screenshot, Heinze went into Milito's zone, so it was not the ideal spacing between the 3 players and not the entire width was covered.

The RB and LB were not both out of position. It was only Zanetti. And this is normal. It was Ayala's task to intercept the cross and to press on Baptista once he couldn't intercept the cross. It was a 45 yard cross!

Zanetti wasn't out of position. His job after losing the ball was to recover, whether he recovered fast enough, or if that would of mattered is a different subject.

Heinze wasn't wide enough and therefore was out of position. For his choice to be considered correct, Milito needed to drop back and help out Ayala, which wasn't the case. So either way to look at it, one of them was out of position because technically, there's no reason for 2 (not just 1) brazilians on the wing to be unmarked.

Ledesma/Battaglia were always right midfielders WITH DEFENSIVE DUTIES. They are called mixed midfielders. Boca plays with 1 DM, two side midfielders and a playmaker. One of the side midfielders was Ledesma/Battaglia. The other Bilos/Cardozo. The DMs were Gago/Banega.

He plays the 4-3-1-2 most of the time but not always. In 06 clausura against Velez, he used 4-4-2 with Gago and Cardozo playing DM, Ledesma and Insua on the wings. I didn't watch all his games but I kept records of the matches I saw, and in that match Insua was not playing CAM, he was playing LM.

Also, against Argentinos, he played 4-2-3-1 with Delgado and Schelotto playing wingers, while Insua was at CAM and Ledesma and Gago were behind Insua as holding mids. Basile also switched into this 4-2-3-1 in other games during 06 clausura by substituting Palacio with Delgado.

The playmakers were Insua/Marino (for 5 games) and Roman.
this is off topic.
After Basile left Boca, they played quite flexibly till Roman went back. You are a Boca fan so you're obviously aware of this. Boca played 4-4-2, 3-4-3, 4-3-3 and 3-5-2 (did I miss any?). What unchanged was that Gago (Banega after Russo took over) was the distributor. Gago had the help of Cardozo and Ledesma (when Ibarra played at right wing), but basically he was the playmaker. Last semester, Russo tried Battaglia first, then eventually chose Banega (sometimes with the help of Battaglia by his side) to fill in Gago's shoes. These people played a deep laying playmaker role, so when a CAM is employed, it's really a SS. This is like what Simeone said in the recent interview, a playmaker role like Pirlo's.

It is not the same to play Riquelme along:
Aimar-Mascherano-Messi than to play Gago-Brana-Mascherano
The first is an offensively minded 4-3-1-2 ... the latter a completely defensive oriented 4-3-1-2 (this is Bianchi's Boca with Roman playing plus 2 forwards)
I give you this examples for you to start using names when describing your formations.

4-3-1-2 or 4-1-3-2. The idea is the 1-3 describes the stagged midfield arrangement. I agree it's ambiguous because the different combinations of outside midfielders assigns different tempo to the strategy. But hey, that's not my fault man. Using this description is a common practice. The other one is better, 4-1-2-1-2, but less commonly seen.

Remember Basile's phrase, if you ever heard it: " You like 4-4-2 ... you like the 0-0s" That is a sarcastic remark that re-inforces his believe in playing a 4-3-1-2 as basic, soul tactical belief. I hope this closes the debate.

There was never a debate on this. I agreed with you that basile likes 4-3-1-2.

Here's an older article about football formations. As the author showed in the graph, in international football, neutral formation is far more popular than offensive strategies today because it's the most successful approach in these tournaments.
http://www.efdeportes.com/efd53/futbol3.htm

Many would argue that Cambiasso is a defensive midfielder. That Veron is the right hand of Brana in Estudiantes as a 2nd holding midfielder. And Mascherano is THE defensive midfielder. The problem comes from the lack of pace in Cambiasso and Veron adding to Riquelme's. I won't forget the heat either ... even thou most have overlooked and others don't want to use it as an excuse.

Like I said b4. I think playing Veron was to obtain a secondary playmaker option in case Roman gets contained. However, instead of a supporter, Veron is used to be playing at the center and having other midfielders supporting him. He was unsuited to the outside midfielder role in 4-3-1-2. So the secondary playmaker option came at the cost of a more suitable outside midfielder. Besides initiating attack, Veron was supposed to provide more lobs, which he also failed to do through out the tourney, not just in the final.

If both outside midfielders are mobile, then one could stay higher relative to the enganche while the other one plays at a lower position for the most part. They can always switch place. Since Veron wasn't a mobile supporter like Maxi, Cambiasso had to shoulder more supporting duty at positions higher than Riquelme.

The diagonal line between Cambiasso-Riquelme-Maxi constantly appeared in '06 WC. It was not there in this Copa, and I think the fault was Veron's, not Cambiasso. When opponent has the ball on the left, Cambiasso needs to drop back. Veron needs to go up when we obtain possession so we could move the ball quickly upfield through Riquelme. That's how pace is obtained, not just by running a player up and down. Because Veron doesn't go up quickly to create routes, Roman often had to wait for Cambiasso to go up. Sometimes he doesn't wait and Cambiasso seemed unable to get to the place quickly enough, but I don't think that should be blamed on Cuchu.

Basile has plenty of time to adjust and correct his team. When he didn't have any of the playmakers available, he went with a 4-4-2 against France. He knew he needed to defend more playing in Paris. I hope he realizes this now and changes his player selection, if he still is going to use a playmaker.

The France friendly wasn't exactly a 4-4-2. Zanetti was playing right wing/ right midfield and Lucho was playing a CAM role towards the right. Basile put on Jonas Gutierrez (OMG so hard to spell his name) later on, that was like Lucho's position except leaning to the opposite side.

After the France and Chile friendlies it was clear that Basile needed Roman. He wanted to play 4-3-1-2 but there was no suitable enganche unless riquelme came back. If he keeps playing 4-3-1-2, I can't even think of better CAM than Roman. This strategy really limits our midfield player selection man.

That is the main criticism to Basile, that he doesn't adapt to others. It is either you propose the initiative, for which you need variations in attack ... read Holland, Argentina, or Brazil (except this Dunga's and WC94); or you wait back and figure out how to stop the opposition ... here you have to base your player selection to do a more defensive job. You objective is to destroy, not build.

There's a balance between destroying and building. Important thing is to know when to do which. Basile chose to build when he needed worrying more about destroying...

The entire press in Argentina was happy with the players chosen. I didn't hear one complain. Not for Sosa, Ledesma or Saviola. Everyone agreed the best players were selected. MAXI EXCLUDED HIMSELF, so don't come back with that. What are your players missing in the team?

22 players, 3 goalie and 5 forwards leaves 7 spot for defenders and 7 for midfielders.

The forwards were good choices except Milito. I just don't like Milito because he's slow. There are other target person choices playing in and out of Argentina.

For the 7 midfielders, Basile took 2 CAM, 1 CM, 2 DM, 1 Winger and Cambiasso. If not for 4-3-1-2, I think a more flexible combination would be 2 CAM, 2 DM, 2 Wingers and Cambiasso. So instead of Veron and Lucho, Jonas and D'Alessandro at least deserved a tryout in the 2 friendlies. There are other options too depend on the general approach. Braña for example, fit very well in some strategies.

The 7 spots left for defenders.
For starter, Sorin should of played. We need width from the left, not right. Roman leans left. I always say this because it's a fact. I bet you 90%+ the time he had spent on the pitch was in left half. Zanetti getting whole lot of width on the right was meaningless because there's no player concentration over that side. So Zanetti could still be RB but should of played more defensively. I think Walter Samuel and Garay deserved a shot too, Using Burdisso or Garay to substitute outside fullbacks could of been an options as well.

Where did you hear it? Can you provide us with a link? 'Cause I never heard it, read it, saw it. Or is it "street talk"?
I heard it from commentators in '06 WC broadcast. Can't cite the source of this one but it's unimportant because the logic stands. Zanetti was and still is quite reliable on the right.

chauchey

03-08-2007, 09:15 AM

The forwards were good choices except Milito. I just don't like Milito because he's slow. There are other target person choices playing in and out of Argentina.while i dont want to get into your pleasant conversation here, i do want to ask 'Who do you think would be better than Diego Milito?'. For the record, i like him, and have wanted him to be included for some time now. He has looked somewhat ackward(which might be his lack of speed now that you mention it) but he's competant and consistant, and thats a very good commodity to have. He also is the target for a few regulars or potential playermakers on the NT, which also makes for better chemistry.

riostrioff

03-08-2007, 10:53 AM

Palermo (without being given PK chances) and Klimowicz are towards the end of their time. Copa was their last chance and we can forget about them now. If not for the career suicide, Piscu would still had little chance too I think.

Ernesto Farias (just transfered to porto), nueva's Higuain and Nicolas Frutos (in the same independiente team with Aguero) should be considered. There are also some younger players coming up.

Milito is so slow I bet you Julio Ricardo Cruz could win a race against him. Milito's main advantage over some forwards is his ability in the air, but in the Copa, he managed to be unimpressive in that category as well.

west501

03-08-2007, 04:24 PM

In a matter of days Basile will give the list for the next friendly against Norway. It will be wholly based with European players.

As for the question of the next 9, we've been able to build our last 4 cup teams' strike forces around a world class targetmen, with supporting figures like Piojo Lopez, Kily Gonzalez, or Conejo Saviola providing speed/mobility in a secondary role that proved tactically essential. The tables have now turned and we have the ability to build our strike force around a number of massively talented secondary strikers (ie Saviola, Tevez, Messi, Aguero, M.Zarate, etc). Imo, we need to build around these and use a targetman to support them because we quite simply lack a new Batistuta/Crespo. The shirt has fit D.Milito a few sizes too large and while I think he can succeed if he's not Crespo's overt replacement, we have a number of interesting players who may be better suited to play with a strike force built around players who play on the ground.
Higuain and Lisandro Lopez are tall, fast, powerful strikers with the physical presence of targetmen and the technique/versatility of second strikers. I see this kind of player as someone who could be very important to go with a Messi-Tevez tandem. Cavenaghi also can fit this role though he's slower and more of an area player. Pavone is another interesting area player who is also very fast and powerful.

That said, we still have Crespo for at least another year or two. Like Batistuta he seems to be showing no signs of slowing down in his 30s and his style of play doesn't require the peak physical condition of a midfielder, but rather the predatory sense of positioning that has only gotten better over time. Hopefully we can phase in a new system while still using him and trying a few transitional players.

Vip

03-08-2007, 04:40 PM

screen shot of the moment (http://bp2.blogger.com/_XgqoRebQifo/RrKwnZANA1I/AAAAAAAAABE/JYcYAzysqus/s1600-h/moment.jpg)

as you can see, Heinze was going up like I drew in the previous diagram.
He should of went wide and leave Milito to cover the middle with Mascherano. In other words, relaying the men marking duties to players at the center.

There's whole set of theories behind this, but essentially the relaying of man marking duties is so the outside most opponent would always be covered by the left back and could not produce a deep run to cross the ball in without concerning offside.

I never claimed that if Heinze made the right choice he would of stopped the cross, Because his mistake before that put himself at a awkward position. He should of zone pressed to put pressure on the wing at first place instead of going to the middle.

On the right, Zanetti was providing lateral support for Veron and Messi so he had to be out of defensive position. The 3 men left defend were therefore Ayala, Milito and Heinze. As seen in the screenshot, Heinze went into Milito's zone, so it was not the ideal spacing between the 3 players and not the entire width was covered.

Zanetti wasn't out of position. His job after losing the ball was to recover, whether he recovered fast enough, or if that would of mattered is a different subject.

Heinze wasn't wide enough and therefore was out of position. For his choice to be considered correct, Milito needed to drop back and help out Ayala, which wasn't the case. So either way to look at it, one of them was out of position because technically, there's no reason for 2 (not just 1) brazilians on the wing to be unmarked.

ETC, etc, etc ...

The etc we can discuss in a different thread ... the Boca thread, as there are situations when Basile changed formations due to injury/suspension, etc. The main 11 are the ones that played the international tournaments and the bigger games in the tournament. But don't need to get carried away from the CA discussion.

This was you original quote, reason why I entered the debate:

The first goal in Copa final was basically because of that problem. Roman told Heinze to push when Zanetti was still hanging high, we ended up without anyone in the back to deal with Brazilian lob.

Obviously, Heinze was not forward, which you claim aided the Brazilian lob. This is were we started. The moment you claimed that Roman asked Heinze to push forward was in another free kick (another Brazilian foul!) in the 2nd minute, with the ball next to Argentina's left side. In that play, Zanetti stayed back along Ayala and Milito. In a temporay line of 3, like it happened every time one of the 2, Zanetti or Heinze, pushed forward, no player has to be next to the line unless there are opponents there. They need to be evenly distributed to cover the width of the field. This is basic 3 man defending.

In order to play Basile's style of attacking football, you need to take more defensive risks. This is why I categorize Basile into being defensively soft. He was a defender, yes, yet the way his teams play are pretty evident ... he likes offensive football.

In his Copa America team, he played with 4 defenders. Since his team was most of the time with the ball, one of the lateral defenders pushed forward leaving a back of 3, plus Mascherano to defend. As Veron and Cambiasso were also used as part of the "creative/attacking" group of players, they needed to have a faster recovery. This is one of the weaknesses.

I also insist that the main problem was when Heinze pushed forward, as he is not fast enough to break the opponent's defensive wall, nor has the skills to dribble passed a defender, nor is he fast enough to recover his defensive duties.

The above is not related to the first goal.

Now, lets go back to the new argument that developed thru out the discussion. If Heinze was out of position.

Your pic shows a "convenient" arrow movement. Heinze took two steps towards the center because Robinho was the most probable option atm, as soon as W.Love recovered the ball. Heinze did the right move, if not Robinho was going to be in a 1-1 with Milito, and we know that Robinho could have breakfast and go to the bathroom before Milito could race him. There was too much space behind Milito.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4128/1copyjd9.jpg
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2880/2copyru3.jpg
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2419/3copyvw1.jpg
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/5365/4copyaa8.jpg
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/9835/5copyky4.jpg

I have taken the time, I can't believe myself, to show you some shots. The second shows Heinze covering his side properly as soon as W.Love decides to pass to Elano. The option of Elano is the one I insist is a handbook play elaborated by Dunga. Furtheremore, W.Love deserves all the credit as he kept running after the pass to Elano and ended being an option for him, wider to the right, before Elano's cross.

Elano's cross is perfect (4th shot). A cross that if made by Becks would be the cover of every British publication. Yet, the main mistake comes from Ayala. First in not been able to intercept a 45 yard cross ... I remember how good he was in anticipating Drogba just 2 months prior and want to slice my wrist. And Ayala's main mistake is to not have pressed onto Baptista closer (4th shot). Veron was already arriving to help if Baptista needed to cut further back and to the center (5th shot). This would had also given Milito time to close even more.

But we all have to realize that this all starts from a bad choice pass from Messi. What made it worst is that it committed Mascherano out of position while trying to get to the ball. For the most inclined to Schuster's theory, after Messi's wonder goal to Getafe, that a player can't just push forward and not get fouled, there could also be blame on Cambiasso for not fouling W.Love (1st shot). Brazil had already fouled at least 3 times in those first 4 minutes. The foul on Riquelme, from which the possesion to this goal started, was hard enough for Cuchu to know that he wouldn't get a yellow for a foul in that area of the field.

In conclusion, Heinze wasn't pushed out of position by Riquelme. In my interpretation of defensive duties, he was in the proper place and made all the right movements. In the following order, and in increscendo of responsabilities, the mistakes came from Messi, Cambiasso and Ayala.

In terms of Basile's choice of players, it is well documented that for Basile, Maxi would had been a starter, over Veron, yet Maxi ruled himself out of the competition. I think that Basile failed to have more depth on the left of attack, specially when Messi played mostly on the right.

In the final, he should had used Zanetti on the left and Ibarra on the right, like against Paraguay. Zanetti would had given that extra dynamic to the left and taken advantage from Riquelme's accurate passing. It would had stretched Brazil a lot more. And Ibarra also pushes forward, as he does at Boca.

Of the squad, I think that Basile overlooked Clemente Rodriguez. He showed a great 2nd half of the semester and was crucial for Boca to win the Libertadores. He also understands himself very well with Roman. The well known "societies" in football. And has the speed to recover into defensive position.

In this same note, IF BASILE DECIDED THAT ROMAN WOULD BE HIS PLAYMAKER, he should had realized the following:
In his start at Boca as a playmaker (not as the right midfielder he was used in his first couple years), Roman played along Arruabarrena as the left back. Arruabarrena was also at Villarreal during Roman's years there. Both Arruabarrena and Clemente are left backs with great offensive use and that know how and when to push in attack. And recover fast enough to defend. Sorin was also a left back that pushed forward constantly. Sorin was the left back in WC06 and when Arruabarrena was injured/suspended, at Villa.

Except at Barza, those have been for the most part, the left backs that have played along Roman. It is important to note that Roman is a playmaker that tends to place himself on the left and cut towards the center. His left back pushing forward is crucial to provide the wide movility that can take advantage of Roman's excellent passing. Heinze is too slow for this. He is not good with the ball on his feet.

Not having a more active left back was Basile's main mistake in Copa America. (And forgetting to use a tall center forward.) It provoked a slow build-up in attack. Prior to the final, the quality of the players ended up opening games for Argentina. But against fierce defending, in a hot hot day, with a ref that was too kind with the yellows, without a tall center forward, Argentina found itself without options to hurt Brazil.

I heard it from commentators in '06 WC broadcast. Can't cite the source of this one but it's unimportant because the logic stands. Zanetti was and still is quite reliable on the right.

Broadcast from what country/station? :

.

chauchey

03-08-2007, 05:12 PM

That said, we still have Crespo for at least another year or two. Like Batistuta he seems to be showing no signs of slowing down in his 30s and his style of play doesn't require the peak physical condition of a midfielder, but rather the predatory sense of positioning that has only gotten better over time. Hopefully we can phase in a new system while still using him and trying a few transitional players.thats true, and i'd forgotten about Higuain :s lol. Late night posting :p
If we're going to be going with players all so young, that would be quite a statement in the next WC. We'd certainly have a chance at winning 2.... :D

riostrioff

03-08-2007, 07:09 PM

Obviously, Heinze was not forward, which you claim aided the Brazilian lob. This is were we started. The moment you claimed that Roman asked Heinze to push forward was in another free kick (another Brazilian foul!) in the 2nd minute, with the ball next to Argentina's left side..

That was my fault. I didn't realize Heinze was covering Robinho till I rewatched that sequence a few times.

After seeing Roman calling Heinze to push after that foul at 2nd minute, I automatically assumed him moving up before the Elano cross was to help offense, which was an incorrect assumption.

However, Heinze did run up, then back. That observation was right. Thank you for taking your time making the screenshots, much better quality than the little one I made :D So let's use your screenshots as the references.

Your pic shows a "convenient" arrow movement. Heinze take two steps towards the center because Robinho was the most probable option atm, as soon as W.Love recovered the ball. Heinze did the right move, if not Robinho was going to be in a 1-1 with Milito, and we know that Robinho could have breakfast and go to the bathroom before Milito could race him. There was too much space behind Milito.

The second shows Heinze covering his side properly as soon as W.Love decides to pass to Elano. The option of Elano is the one I insist is a handbook play elaborated by Dunga. Furtheremore, W.Love deserves all the credit as he kept running after the pass to Elano and ended being an option for him, wider to the right, before Elano's cross.

In conclusion, Heinze wasn't pushed out of position by Riquelme. In my interpretation of defensive duties, he was in the proper place and made all the right movements. In the following order, and in increscendo of responsabilities, the mistakes came from Messi, Cambiasso and Ayala.

I understand the approach you proposed, ie. let Mascherano and Cambiasso deal with those 2 Brazilians on the left, Heinze go low to prevent a deep wing run and a lateral cross, Milito stay in the middle and watch for Robinho.

I'm saying that's not the proper way of handling the situation, not at the first place at least.

As indicated in your #1 and #2 screenshots, Milito first turned around to run towards left, not center. That would of made sense if Heinze went left forward to press on Elano and relayed the duty of marking Robinho to Milito.

They (both of them) then realized Heinze was too far to press wide, so they went for the approach you had described. The problem was, they should of seen Elano's cross coming.Their anticipation was that Elano would run deeper then cross more laterally. Which obviously wasn't the case.

Another approach would be to let Heinze remain on Robinho, and Milito run back to double Baptista with Ayala. Mascherano and Cambiasso stay on the Brazilian wingers. This way an early cross can't be prevented, but there would be more pressure on Baptista. However, due to the 2 sec crucial time they wasted by not knowing which option to take, when both Heinze and Milito had turned around, this approach was no longer an option either.

But we all have to realize that this all starts from a bad choice pass from Messi. What made it worst is that it committed Mascherano out of position while trying to get to the ball. For the most inclined to Schuster's theory, after Messi's wonder goal to Getafe, that a player can't just push forward and not get fouled, there could also be blame on Cambiasso for not fouling W.Love (1st shot). Brazil had already fouled at least 3 times in those first 4 minutes. The foul on Riquelme, from which the possesion to this goal started, was hard enough for Cuchu to know that he wouldn't get a yellow for a foul in that area of the field.

Elano's cross is perfect (4th shot). A cross that if made by Becks would be the cover of every British publication. Yet, the main mistake comes from Ayala. First in not been able to intercept a 45 yard cross ... I remember how good he was in anticipating Drogba just 2 months prior and want to slice my wrist. And Ayala's main mistake is to not have pressed onto Baptista closer (4th shot). Veron was already arriving to help if Baptista needed to cut further back and to the center (5th shot). This would had also given Milito time to close even more.

I agree Cambiasso and Veron should of fouled their marks upfield. Even Mascherano could of taken someone out to stop the play. I'm a firm believer of practical playing, including fouling tactics when necessary.

Some refs would pull out a card if midfielder fouled too high up. It was only couple minutes into the match, they probably weren't sured of the ref yet. However, Veron left Baptista running downfield by himself was unacceptable. No matter how much confidence he had in Ayala, it was still his responsibility to double up on Baptista.

I wouldn't put so much blame on Ayala though. Him not pressing closer to Baptista looked like some precaution to prevent a dummy move or panna from happening. The thing is, Veron needed to be pressing Baptista from his right, so he would only have the angle on his left to shoot.

In order to play Basile's style of attacking football, you need to take more defensive risks. This is why I categorize Basile into being defensively soft. He was a defender, yes, yet the way his teams play are pretty evident ... he likes offensive football.

In his Copa America team, he played with 4 defenders. Since his team was most of the time with the ball, one of the lateral defenders pushed forward leaving a back of 3, plus Mascherano to defend. As Veron and Cambiasso were also used as part of the "creative/attacking" group of players, they needed to have a faster recovery. This is one of the weaknesses.

I also insist that the main problem was when Heinze pushed forward, as he is not fast enough to break the opponent's defensive wall, nor has the skills to dribble passed a defender, nor is he fast enough to recover his defensive duties.

In the final, he should had used Zanetti on the left and Ibarra on the right, like against Paraguay. Zanetti would had given that extra dynamic to the left and taken advantage from Riquelme's accurate passing. It would had stretched Brazil a lot more. And Ibarra also pushes forward, as he does at Boca.

Of the squad, I think that Basile overlooked Clemente Rodriguez. He showed a great 2nd half of the semester and was crucial for Boca to win the Libertadores. He also understands himself very well with Roman. The well known "societies" in football. And has the speed to recover into defensive position.

In this same note, IF BASILE DECIDED THAT ROMAN WOULD BE HIS PLAYMAKER, he should had realized the following:
In his start at Boca as a playmaker (not as the right midfielder he was used in his first couple years), Roman played along Arruabarrena as the left back. Arruabarrena was also at Villarreal during Roman's years there. Both Arruabarrena and Clemente are left backs with great offensive use and that know how and when to push in attack. And recover fast enough to defend. Sorin was also a left back that pushed forward constantly. Sorin was the left back in WC06 and when Arruabarrena was injured/suspended, at Villa.

Except at Barza, those have been for the most part, the left backs that have played along Roman. It is important to note that Roman is a playmaker that tends to place himself on the left and cut towards the center. His left back pushing forward is crucial to provide the wide movility that can take advantage of Roman's excellent passing. Heinze is too slow for this. He is not good with the ball on his feet.

Not having a more active left back was Basile's main mistake in Copa America. (And forgetting to use a tall center forward.) It provoked a slow build-up in attack. Prior to the final, the quality of the players ended up opening games for Argentina. But against fierce defending, in a hot hot day, with a ref that was too kind with the yellows, without a tall center forward, Argentina found itself without options to hurt Brazil.

Sorin man. All you needed was Sorin.

I like Clemente too, in fact, after it was clear that Sorin wouldn't be included in the team, I kept saying Clemente could of played LB. A lot of people were bashing that idea because Clemente does not recover actively enough at times, they say he is a defensive reliability issue, and I can't really argue against that. Because after all, the left wing back is a back because he has defensive responsibilities.

Broadcast from what country/station?
ESPN
I want to say Tom Smyth but I'm really not sure.

thats true, and i'd forgotten about Higuain :s lol. Late night posting :p
If we're going to be going with players all so young, that would be quite a statement in the next WC. We'd certainly have a chance at winning 2.... :D

actually, I was thinking of the other Higuain.
I don't really like the Real Madrid Higuain despite the fact he has the height and speed. His finish isn't very refined and he's mediocre in the air for his height.

west501

03-08-2007, 08:07 PM

another interesting left-sided player we have is Julio Arca of Middlesbrough
he has a very soft touch and does not tire..though he seems to be a bit injury prone

riostrioff

03-08-2007, 10:45 PM

Basile tried the Tevez+Messi duo, Fergurson is set to try Rooney-Tevez combo. Some tactical breakthroughs might come from these experiments and ultimately eliminate the need for a traditional target person. If that can happen, we're in luck lol. We got all the short people...

I think we should wait for the result of ManU's experiment before really looking for more #9s. You mentioned Lisandro earlier, like Nueva's Higuain, he's fast, pretty physical, and has good finish, but they probably aren't tall enough to possess serious threat in the air.

riostrioff

05-08-2007, 07:17 AM

http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/08/05/01471798.html

Bielsa is now Chilean DT.

The assistants he took, Eduardo Berizzo, Alfredo Berti and Ricardo Lunari, all were Newell's players.

http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/08/05/01471670.html

don't like quoting myself, but I said this b4 :D

After Basile left Boca, they played quite flexibly till Roman went back. You are a Boca fan so you're obviously aware of this. Boca played 4-4-2, 3-4-3, 4-3-3 and 3-5-2 (did I miss any?). What unchanged was that Gago (Banega after Russo took over) was the distributor. Gago had the help of Cardozo and Ledesma (when Ibarra played at right wing), but basically he was the playmaker. Last semester, Russo tried Battaglia first, then eventually chose Banega (sometimes with the help of Battaglia by his side) to fill in Gago's shoes. These people played a deep laying playmaker role, so when a CAM is employed, it's really a SS. This is like what Simeone said in the recent interview, a playmaker role like Pirlo's.

west501

09-08-2007, 01:59 PM

Full squad list (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/08082007/58/int-friendlies-saviola-returns-argentina-fold.html):

Juan Pablo Carrizo (Lazio), Oscar Ustari (Getafe) and Sergio Romero (AZ Alkmaar);
Gabriel Milito (Barcelona), Fabricio Coloccini (La Coruña), Javier Zanetti (Inter), Nicolás Burdisso (Inter), Daniel Díaz (Getafe) and Ezequiel Garay (Racing);
Luis González (Porto), Maximiliano Rodríguez (Atlético Madrid), José Sosa (Bayern Munich), Javier Mascherano (Liverpool), Fernando Gago (Real Madrid), Christian Ledesma (Olympiakos) and Federico Insúa (América, Mexico);
Diego Milito (Zaragoza), Lionel Messi (Barcelona), Ezequiel Lavezzi (Napoli) and Javier Saviola (Real Madrid).

this is for the friendly on the 22nd against Norway
I'd like to see the following

Juampa 'Iker' Carrizo :D:D:D
Colo-Burdisso-G.Milito
Zanetti(c)-Masche
Maxi-Messi-Sosa
Saviola-D.Milito

it'll be a cold day in hell when Basile plays 3 defenders, expect Zanetti(c) as left back and Insua over Sosa on the left
I continue to call for Arca as left wing-back and hope he starts the season well
Heinze and Pato:eek: have been all but dropped from the squad

threervana

12-08-2007, 05:01 AM

I bet Basile won't plays 3 defenders that day~~:)
And he definitely won't play the crazy 3232 whick was the patent of Bielsa~~

I'm truly a little bit shocked that Coco don't call any left-leg LB and LM~~
And I really think Coco should consider to give one of the three (Pinola 、Arca and Clemente) a chance when Heinze is not called.

~~~Personally,I would like to see the formation like this:
Ustari
Burdisso-Garay-G.Milito-Zanetti(c)
Masche-Gago-Maxi
Messi
Saviola-D.Milito

chauchey

12-08-2007, 08:54 AM

i'd be shocked if heinze was dropped. i just couldnt see that happening.

west501

21-08-2007, 07:35 PM

lineup for tomorrow confirmed
http://www.ole.clarin.com/diario/2007/08/21/um/thumb/messi.jpg
source (http://www.ole.clarin.com/notas/2007/08/21/um/01482512.html)

--------------ustari
zanetti(c)-garay-burdisso-g.milito
-------lucho-masche-maxi
--------------messi
----------lavezzi-d.milito

I assume pupi zanetti is the logical captain in this side, but it may be time to start thinking about the next capitan
JPcarrizo is having trouble with his passport and has been dropped due to lack of fitness since he hasn't been training (send him back to river!)
I wrote it like I saw it, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a garay-burdisso-g.milito-zanetti(c) defensive line against norway

chauchey

22-08-2007, 12:27 AM

looks like this game is getting capped. :D I'm kinda apprehensive that Basile would be using messi in a starting role, when he would most likely be starting for Barca in their season opener in 3 days time after this game. I would hope that he'd get subbed off after halftime. I say this, because i'd like to see our coach maintane a good rapore with the club teams, and overusing players on friendlies might not be the way to go. If this where a meaningful game, it would be a different situation imo.

threervana

22-08-2007, 05:56 AM

The lineup is almost the same with my prediction:)
except two poor Real Madrid players Gago and Saviola who coundn't gain a starting position in this club~~~~

chauchey

22-08-2007, 07:17 AM

if they have any scense, saviola will be starting soon. that guy was incredible for barca last year, especially when you consider that he didnt play a whole lot, and always under adverse conditions. Gago, i'm not sure is being utilized in a way that lets him showcase what he's good at, so he's in a real pickle. If Capello was still there, i think we'd see Gago still playing. If RMA loose a few opening season games, you'll see gago in there real fast to shore up the midfield defensively.

But onto our game tomorrow. Anyone want to predict a scoreline? I say....

Argentina 4:1 Norway.

But only because the Norwiegans would have called ahead, saying that their fans want to see Messi score a bunch of goals. Otherwise it'll be 2:1, same winner. :D ;) :D

riostrioff

22-08-2007, 02:11 PM

we shall see in a bit. I don't work today :)

With Basile's setup, my concern is that Messi might stay too high (especially that I don't believe he's fully recovered from the competitions, making it less likely to see alot of back channeling from him) and we might lack connection in the middle. Mascherano's distribution had improved but I still wouldn't consider him a natural deep laying playmaker.

Since Maxi is versatile and Lucho likes to stay wide, the overall formation might compact towards Lucho's side (whichever wing he's on), and Maxi could cut towards the middle to become sort of a playmaker. This might be Maxi left Lucho right, then Zanetti atleft back could get width where it's needed, and Burdisso should then play the other fullback.

Norway won't turtle. Unless they want to sent some kind of negative message to their euro08 qualifier opponents. Possession should be fairly equal, especially since we don't have a well defined conductor to central around and maintain offensive pressure. My prediction: 2-2. If lucky then 3-1 or 2-1.

west501

23-08-2007, 02:37 AM

it'll be a cold day in hell when Basile plays 3 defenders

apparently it gets pretty cold in norway this time of year, my friends :p
did you see that formation at the end of the game??
---------ustari
garay-burdisso-g.milito
-----gago-zanetti(c)
masche---------insúa
--maxi-messi-saviola

it looked a bit thrown together, to be sure, but in truth those last minutes were the best hint of promise in an otherwise poor poor game because we played with some speed there
the defence looked terrible today, with G.Milito completely out of position and a visibly unfit Carew creating all sorts of problems
overall though I no longer care about losses unless they're in games where we face elimination from huge underdogs or against Brazil

is the friendly on 11/9 in australia? if so, I volunteer to play because I can't see the European or national players coming

edit: 11/9 = 11 of september (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_date#dd.2Fmm.2Fyyyy_.28day.2C_month.2C_ye ar.29)

riostrioff

23-08-2007, 05:43 AM

the formation in the end was 4-2-3-1 with Zanetti actively pushing for width (since we needed 2 goals in 10 minutes).

Mascher and Gago were the DM/deep laying playmakers. Maxi and Insua were the outside midfielders, while they were cutting into the middle alot towards the end so they were almost like CAMs.

Messi was also CAM, or SS when he played higher, leaving saviola sticking up as the lone striker.

akd

23-08-2007, 06:25 AM

What a waste of time, good thing I didn't lose an hour and a half of my life watching that game:rolleyes:

chauchey

23-08-2007, 06:54 AM

phew. kind of an ugly game. I have to wonder if the players where told to 'take it easy' because they where in Oslo. Because they sure didnt look desperate untill the last 10 minutes or so. That one play by saviola/messi was really, really nice. Almost made up for the second half, although the first half was a snoozer. Ah well. I didnt expect it to be a barn burner, even though i'd hoped for something slightly more(from where though, was up in the air) :p :)

Whens the next argentina game? Chile or Aussie?

threervana

23-08-2007, 01:52 PM

Just a friendly match ,losing is not a big deal~~:)

Next rival is Aus , in Dec 11~~~

west501

23-08-2007, 01:56 PM

the formation in the end was 4-2-3-1 with Zanetti actively pushing for width (since we needed 2 goals in 10 minutes).

yes, but zanetti was pushing straight up the middle and like in the last games where gago game in masche played on the far right
I think we saw a Bielsa 2004 formation with 3 central defenders Zanetti as a central mid for a few precious moments there
in any case what we need is someone strong for the left side
santana looked good when pekerman tried him..insua doesn't convince me on the flank
but I don't know the solution
I loved seeing maxi back too, he should have had two goals

threervana

23-08-2007, 02:04 PM

yes, but zanetti was pushing straight up the middle and like in the last games where gago game in masche played on the far right
I think we saw a Bielsa 2004 formation with 3 central defenders Zanetti as a central mid for a few precious moments there
in any case what we need is someone strong for the left side
santana looked good when pekerman tried him..insua doesn't convince me on the flank

Santana is suffering from injuries all the time and plays a little in his club~~~:o

Actually,IMO,Insua performed not bad on the left flank in this game~~

Arg10

23-08-2007, 03:38 PM

Just a friendly match ,losing is not a big deal~~:)

Next rival is Aus , in Dec 11~~~

According to FIFA(http://fifa.com/associations/association=arg/fixturesresults/gender=m/index.html) the next match is on September 11.

Australia isn't a walk in the park either. We all know how difficult it was to eliminate them from the World Cup(for Italy that is). I think yesterdays match was just Basile experimenting for the World Cup Q. more than anything. It was great to see Maxi back, I'm not sure how dependant Ustari is though he did play a good game. Oh and for the love of all that is Holy, is it possible for Argentina to have a goalkeeper thats good at saving penaltys? I know Abbondanzieri was pretty good at that, but we fall into the England/Italy category when it comes to being bad at penaltys. Except we've beaten England on penaltys before:).

I barely saw Lavezzi on the pitch at all. Our target maan was Milito and if this is the guy who's supposed to wear the #9 after Crespo leaves, were fucked. I still have no idea why Aimar wasn't called up either. Riquelme I can somewhat understand since his status with a club wasn't certain yet, Tevez same thing since he just moved to United. On paper, it was interesting to see Messi, Milito, Saviola and Lavezzi as forwards. But what we got was 1 guy whom we barely saw on the pitch, another who's supposed to be our next #9 yet gets 2 cramps while the other 2 played great together. Lavezzi was out of place more than anything and the only reason he was called up was to gain some experience and I can understand that. Milito plays for Zaragoza, plays full 90 minutes yet he can't seem to score a goal for his NT. I'm not hating on Milito, aside from his pace I don't think theres any other flaw... But when he plays for the NT he just dosn't click. Copa America he was lucky to get that goal since it deflected off the D and went in. But time will tell. Saviola should of started the game because the kid looked great. Messi is Messi.

And why isn't Gago used more? Copa America he was barely used because of Veron who barely did shit all. And I LOVE Veron, but Gago is the youth who can only get better. Oh and I WANT AIMAR!

Vamos Vamos Argentina!

threervana

23-08-2007, 04:09 PM

According to FIFA(http://fifa.com/associations/association=arg/fixturesresults/gender=m/index.html) the next match is on September 11.

Australia isn't a walk in the park either. We all know how difficult it was to eliminate them from the World Cup(for Italy that is). I think yesterdays match was just Basile experimenting for the World Cup Q. more than anything. It was great to see Maxi back, I'm not sure how dependant Ustari is though he did play a good game. Oh and for the love of all that is Holy, is it possible for Argentina to have a goalkeeper thats good at saving penaltys? I know Abbondanzieri was pretty good at that, but we fall into the England/Italy category when it comes to being bad at penaltys. Except we've beaten England on penaltys before:).

I barely saw Lavezzi on the pitch at all. Our target maan was Milito and if this is the guy who's supposed to wear the #9 after Crespo leaves, were fucked. I still have no idea why Aimar wasn't called up either. Riquelme I can somewhat understand since his status with a club wasn't certain yet, Tevez same thing since he just moved to United. On paper, it was interesting to see Messi, Milito, Saviola and Lavezzi as forwards. But what we got was 1 guy whom we barely saw on the pitch, another who's supposed to be our next #9 yet gets 2 cramps while the other 2 played great together. Lavezzi was out of place more than anything and the only reason he was called up was to gain some experience and I can understand that. Milito plays for Zaragoza, plays full 90 minutes yet he can't seem to score a goal for his NT. I'm not hating on Milito, aside from his pace I don't think theres any other flaw... But when he plays for the NT he just dosn't click. Copa America he was lucky to get that goal since it deflected off the D and went in. But time will tell. Saviola should of started the game because the kid looked great. Messi is Messi.

And why isn't Gago used more? Copa America he was barely used because of Veron who barely did shit all. And I LOVE Veron, but Gago is the youth who can only get better. Oh and I WANT AIMAR!

Vamos Vamos Argentina!

Sorry ,my bad ~~It's Sep 11~~and I typed wrong accidently:p

and I WANT AIMAR,2~~~:D

PS Really think Gago and Saviola should be lineup~~

riostrioff

23-08-2007, 04:46 PM

I loved seeing maxi back too, he should have had two goals

ya, that cross from Messi landed right infront of Maxi's head. He jumped too early and didn't process that right.

The one really wasted all our chances was Diego Milito. This guy is pointless to use as a sprinter, he can't out run an elephant when his life is on the line. And now we've seen how much his headers sucked against defenderss that were at best mediocre in the air, pure fucking disappointment. And he had 2 cramps by 70th minute in a friendly, during offseason. What kind of physical condition was that?

Lavezzi is there for the olympic spot. This guy clearly doesn't have what it takes to be on the senior NT, and IMO not even worthy of the spot on U-23.

And Insua was full of mediocrity. You guys saw that shot he made in the box? When he was wide open and right infront of the center of goal. Basile's nepotism failed to pay off again.

I don't like our current coach, but I'll stop criticizing him for now and just watch what he does next. This guy is going to get himself fired again sooner or later.

if you'd like to hear more bitching
basile:
http://albicelestesforever.blogspot.com/2007/07/crucification.html
bielsa:
http://albicelestesforever.blogspot.com/2007/08/requiem-for-dream.html

:)

chauchey

23-08-2007, 11:38 PM

..insua doesn't convince me on the flank
but I don't know the solution
I loved seeing maxi back too, he should have had two goalsI felt insua fit in ok, didnt look perfect, but with some improvement might be the right fit. Its my opinion that you can't have too many chefs, otherwise you spoil the soup. I think he might fit the role of a lesser player that doesnt screw up often(i know he missed a beauty).

Actually,IMO,Insua performed not bad on the left flank in this game~~i felt he played adequetly as well.

According to FIFA(http://fifa.com/associations/association=arg/fixturesresults/gender=m/index.html) the next match is on September 11.

Australia isn't a walk in the park either. We all know how difficult it was to eliminate them from the World Cup(for Italy that is). I think yesterdays match was just Basile experimenting for the World Cup Q. more than anything. It was great to see Maxi back, I'm not sure how dependant Ustari is though he did play a good game. Oh and for the love of all that is Holy, is it possible for Argentina to have a goalkeeper thats good at saving penaltys? ...
Vamos Vamos Argentina!thanks for the heads up on the next game date. :) ustari, in what i believe was his first real start? got his fingertips on a ball that was labeled for the corner, very early in the match after little or no work. Not bad. Plus he made some other very quality saves in the game. Imo, we all think back to Goycochea and his incredible ability to save penalties(being the third string goalie no less) in key, preaaassssure filled games, which raised the bar for all goalies in the future. What he did was nothing short of brilliant. My goodness to could that man play! :o :)

Pato was great in the run to the 2005 Copa Sudamericana...truely great. But after the Copa, i think he's shown that its time for someone else to step in and prove themselves. The next few years look to be Ustari's to win or loose, and after that perhaps Romeo's...I hope one fills the role in time for the WC2k10. Which i'm very much looking forward to watching ;) :cool:

Arg10

24-08-2007, 01:52 AM

I don't like our current coach, but I'll stop criticizing him for now and just watch what he does next. This guy is going to get himself fired again sooner or later.

if you'd like to hear more bitching
basile:
http://albicelestesforever.blogspot.com/2007/07/crucification.html
bielsa:
http://albicelestesforever.blogspot.com/2007/08/requiem-for-dream.html

:)

Haha, I visit your blog nearly every day. Im Arg10(Roy) from the Mundo Albicelestes forum.

thanks for the heads up on the next game date. ustari, in what i believe was his first real start? got his fingertips on a ball that was labeled for the corner, very early in the match after little or no work. Not bad. Plus he made some other very quality saves in the game. Imo, we all think back to Goycochea and his incredible ability to save penalties(being the third string goalie no less) in key, preaaassssure filled games, which raised the bar for all goalies in the future. What he did was nothing short of brilliant. My goodness to could that man play!

Pato was great in the run to the 2005 Copa Sudamericana...truely great. But after the Copa, i think he's shown that its time for someone else to step in and prove themselves. The next few years look to be Ustari's to win or loose, and after that perhaps Romeo's...I hope one fills the role in time for the WC2k10. Which i'm very much looking forward to watching

My bad if I came off sounding like I don't like Ustari. I believe your right, it was his first real start and no matter who you are you're going to be nervous. From what I saw he played pretty good, showed some promise. He made some key saves though you can fault him for the second goal where he came out a bit too much from his goal. But other than that I think he did fine. The thing about Romero is that he didn't get called upon that much during the U20 World Cup so he wasn't tested much. But when he was he made the key saves. He's still young and I would give him another year or 2 before possibly giving him his first NT start. From what I've seen Carizzo is pretty good himself, though I've barely seen anything from him. I suppose its safe to say that Leo Franco's NT career is done?

I think our biggest problem down the line will end up being our back line. I love Zanetti to death and pray to God that he'll be available in 2010 but what about the rest? Burdisso has some World Cup experience and played pretty good against Norway. Coloccini is done for and Ayala retired. If Basile stays coach until 2010 than I can't see Sorin in there either. Midfield I think we'll do fine. Riquelme played God like for us in the Copa and if somehow someway he isn't picked for the World Cup, than Aimar will be there. One thing that I hate is how he's overshadowed. Much like Crespo. In 1998 Crespo was just starting out and played substitute to Batistuta(no problem there). 2002 he was a substitute for Batistuta again. Yet in 2002 we easily could of had a formation where Batistuta and Crespo played together. Crespo had his "time to shine" in 2006. One thing that I hate is how Crespo never seems to get the respect that he deserves. I don't know why, its just the way it is.

Aimar is the exact same thing. 2006-Present he's being overshadowed by Riquelme. And I think that aslong as Riquelme is on the team, Aimar will be overshadowed. And I think it sucks personally because Aimar is a great player and should not be on the bench.

chauchey

24-08-2007, 03:53 AM

One thing that I hate is how Crespo never seems to get the respect that he deservesi couldnt agree with you more. In his last season with chelsea, there was only a couple games where he didnt have goals called back(at least 1, many games 2) due to offsides that where not(apon replay) offsides. He has been one of the most clinical and consistant finishers on the planet in recent years, and in my opinion, of around the same quality as RVN, just never seems to get the playing time to prove it since his move to england(and now back).
If aimar is subbed into a game after the second half starts, i feel he plays his best ball. Other than that, he seems to disapear quickly and often times isnt a major factor. But subbed in, totally different player. Its like he's hungry to prove himself and plays often times, like he can.
I cant wait till Di Maria comes of age to play on the NT. That kid just seemed to make unreal quality(soft/accurate) passes in the U-20's. I think if Aimar or Delassandro doesnt really push for a definet role on the team, you might just see a 22ish year old Di-Maria splitting time with them come 2010. I hope so. :)

threervana

28-08-2007, 09:36 AM

progott

28-08-2007, 10:46 AM

what's wrong with that coach? Abondannzierie, Dias, Coloccini, Gago, Insua, Ledesma? WTF is this?
Where is Garay? He completely owned Barcas offence? What about Almiron? Fazio?

IMO Basile should play like this:

-------------Osky-------------
Zanetti-Milito-Demichelis-Burdisso
---------Mascherano----------
Messi-------Insua-------Tevez
------Aguero-----Crespo-------

Messi is no striker and not enxperienced enough to be the playmaker. We MUST play with two strikers, Crespo allone or Tevez allone is not good. Tevez allways tracks back to the midfield to get balls, why not play him like in the lineup above? I would really love to see this, but i'm sure it will never happen.

^^Your MF with Maxi, Gago and Masch is crap! There MUST be Insua though he isn't the best option for the team.

Arg10

28-08-2007, 01:26 PM

ARGENTINA SQUAD TO PLAY AUSTRALIA::)

Roberto Abbondanzieri (Getafe), Oscar Ustari (Getafe), Sergio Romero (AZ Alkmaar);
Gabriel Heinze (Real Madrid), Daniel Diaz (Getafe), Gabriel Milito (Barcelona), Fabricio Coloccini (Deportivo La Coruna), Nicolas Burdisso (Inter Milan), Javier Zanetti (Inter Milan),Martin Demichelis (Bayern Munich);

Fernando Gago (Real Madrid), Jonas Gutierrez (Mallorca), Javier Mascherano (Liverpool), Federico Insua (America, Mexico), Cristian Ledesma (Olympiakos), Maxi Rodriguez (Athletico Madrid),

Sergio Aguero (Atletico Madrid); Javier Saviola (Real Madrid), Hernan Crespo (Inter Milan), Carlos Tevez (Manchester United), Lionel Messi (Barcelona)

================================================== =====
Some old faces come back:cool:
But Aimar and Roman are still not called up :o
(Romy has his transfer problem at present,but Pablito...)

Diego Milito unfortunately not in,as well as Garay,seems Coco do not want to try them again:confused:

I would like to see the lineup like this :
Crespo Saviola
Messi
Maxi Gago Masche
Heinze Milito Burdisso Zanetti(C)
Ustari(really wish Coco to give him another chance;))

I swear to God COCO is messed in the head. No Aimar? I can understand Riquelme, what with Riquelme not really having a real squad(I doubt he'll play for Villa), but Aimar... What the hell. It seems as if he has something against him. I can maybe understand him trying to experiment with the young guys, but you atleast bring in a freaking veteran. Aimar is not a slacker, atleast bring him in to be a substitute. ATLEAST that(though I would prefer him to be a starter).

Up front I believe COCO has made a VERY good decision with cutting off Milito. We are STACKED. More stacked than Copa. Copa we had Crespo, Messi, Tevez, Palacio(who really did shit all) and Milito(see Palacio). Now we have Aguero(who's been in top form since the U20 World Cup), Crespo, Messi, Tevez, Saviola. Question is who starts and who dosn't. If Copa is an indication, it'll be Messi behind Crespo. But this is a friendly. I'm practically sure Messi will start since he always does(and deservingly so). I can see Aguero getting some time in the 80th minute or something. So that leaves up Crespo, Tevez and Saviola... Very difficult decision. Do you go with youth(well to some extent) with Tevez and Saviola(with one of them coming on for the other as a substitute) or do you go with experience and have Tevez or Saviola come on later. Very difficult decision, but I doubt you can go wrong especially with our list.

Now goalkeeper wise... I guess COCO wasn't happy with what he saw from Ustari. Personally I believe he deserves another chance and if COCO really wants to take a risk he can start our Romero, but he'll never do that(I don't blame him). With Pato being called up again that can only mean that he'll start. I suppose COCO wants to go with experience in the case of Pato, but like I stated in previous posts, he didn't show us any sign of "safeness" so to speak between the posts in Copa. Especially the match before the Copa versus Algeria where he was horrible. So we'll see.

As for the back line... Whatever works. So that means Zanetti and Heinze will start. And I can see Burdisso getting a start aswell since I think he played good versus Norway. Midfield is where I'm worried right now. No Aimar and no Riquelme... COCO you idiot...

riostrioff

28-08-2007, 01:58 PM

what can I say...

threervana

28-08-2007, 02:31 PM

west501

28-08-2007, 04:27 PM

I like seeing micho in there, a very classy player we can build on for 2010
he's polyfunctional and a natural leader who is just dying to prove the shirt fits him
he can go forward as well and it would be interesting to see him play free in front of a line of 3 central defenders and behind/beside masche when zanetti is gone

though I don't like our choices for left back, I'd like to see
--------------ustari
zanetti(c)-micho-g.milito-heinze
------masche-gago-messi
------maxi-crespo-saviola

:p Mate,we should really really consider our defence problem now ,shouldn't we?
So I think starting 2 DMF is truly necessary, or the responsibility of Masche is tooooo heavy~~

we can solve that tactically
remember passarella's 3-3-1-3

progott

28-08-2007, 04:30 PM

Demichelis should play CB. He's no DM, he had a hand full of good games for bayern as a DM and was great so far as CB.

threervana

29-08-2007, 01:57 AM

we can solve that tactically
remember passarella's 3-3-1-3

yep~~This classical formation really fits now since we have so many CBs、DMs and SSs

But I bet COCO won't do this~~He is an addict of 4-3-1-2:D

chauchey

29-08-2007, 04:42 AM

Messi is no strikeri watch every single barca/argentina game...this kid is made for the front. Ronnie for example, is more of a passing type forward/midfielder, but Messi has got the speed and touch to get around the last defender, and put it into the net. He's a forward/striker, he's a goal scorer. He does his best work when he's the guy finishing the play, or in the final stages of a play(tic tac toe passing with just outside/inside the box). He's played his poorest games when this hasnt been the case.
I'd like to see Saviola/Crespo start. They've got the best natural chemistry out of all the players there. I would like to see another forward, Messi will most likely be this player. I dont see him NOT starting any games in the next 10 years, that he's fit to play in.
Pato's had his time, we need to start grooming another goalie. Ustari imo, is this guy. Sadly, Pato seems to play well for his clubs...thereby getting the callups, just not for his country. Which is frusterating. :(
In the midfield, while i havent seen him play lately, i know last year Delassandro played VERY well for Zaragoza(the games i watched even better than Pablito) and deserved a callup that he never got.
I like Insua, because he seems to be a competant player, who doesnt need to touch the ball. Lets face it, with so many superstars on the same team, you need someone who's just willing to work hard away from the ball, make the tackles, and touch the ball twice in a game. Maybe he's our guy. We cant have straight Riquelme's in the midfield, because they'd all play like crap because they wouldnt see enough balltime.

Too many chef's, and not enough cooks. :)

------------Saviola------Crespo----------Messi--------
---------someone---------Mascherano------Insua----
------Burdisso----Zanetti------Milito-----Heinze---

I know a 4-2-4 works great in football video games, but i dont see it working in real life quite so well. :p :D Although if we had a fast enough d-man, who could move back and forth between the midfield and defense fluidly(Ledesman perhaps? but he plays on the right side doesnt he?) what a gem that would be.
Sadly, with Messi being so likened to Diego, i think he's destined to be played in the midfield for argentina, rather than a forward, . :(