The Vamos Albiceleste thread v2.0 **SPOILERS**

[perfectdark]

This needed to be done or else I probably wouldnt be able to sleep at night :D Post all Argentina NT news here.

So Pekerman will be traveling to Europe to meet with the players.

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=427612

Espndeportes is irritating me :mad: They seem to think that Scaloni somehow guaranteed himself a place in the NT. They should watch him play with West Ham before making assumptions. It is going to be a tragedy if he makes it instead of players like Zanetti, Militio and Gonzalo. I know I have said this a million time but they keep insisting on him and Ponzio when Pekerman was in fact just trying them for 1 friendly...and scaloni didnt even play that game :o

Anyways just 2 more months for the WC to start :cool:

[saurabh]

http://www.pasqualinonet.com.ar/images/Bandera-argentina.jpg

Argentina! Argentina!! Argentina!!!

[perfectdark]

heh thx for the visual support ;)

Great news, Heinze might play against Sunderland.

http://www.goal.com/en/articolo.aspx?contenutoId=34911

:) :)

btw how does a tiger tackle ? :confused:

[saurabh]

Heinze's return is good news!! :)

We must go to Germany with our best players and just dominate every team!!

[givemehistory]

Wah, I was going to make a new thread today, but you beat me to it. :p

Vamos!

p.s. Lux > Pato. Discuss.

[ELLADA]

p.s. Lux > Pato. Discuss.
No need to discuss. Pato did all the discussing against Croatia. :)

[west501]

cada dia te quiero mas
the results of lanacion's poll (http://www.lanacion.com.ar/coberturaespecial/mundial2006/nota.asp?nota_id=796397) are out
I think certain issues are clear: lux>>>>pato, scaloni second from bottom, votes for veron = votes for sorín/3, and agüero's got to go

[givemehistory]

Lux does have two areas in which he could improve:

1) stopping penalty kicks (which, unfortunately, seems to be Pato's forte, in relative terms of course)
2) sometimes his clearances are sketchy, but they haven't caused River any direct problems as far as I can remember, so it shouldn't be a big problem.

Other than that, his reflexes are excellent, and his positioning is usually good, plus he doesn't have "sticky feet" like Pato.

Anyway, I hope Pekerman at least considers starting Lux over Pato, at least on the strength of their respective performances this season.



cada dia te quiero mas
the results of lanacion's poll (http://www.lanacion.com.ar/coberturaespecial/mundial2006/nota.asp?nota_id=796397) are out
I think certain issues are clear: lux>>>>pato, scaloni second from bottom, votes for veron = votes for sorín/3, and agüero's got to go

Okay, first of all, that poll has Zabaleta listed as a defender. :rolleyes: Second of all, Gago over Demichelis? People in Argentina need to watch more Bundesliga, methinks. Oh well, other than the Aguero issue, I agree with those results, although I think Gonzalo deserves to go ahead of Samuel. :P

[ELLADA]

cada dia te quiero mas
oh, how cute, a not-so secret admirer :)

As for the poll, take out Samuel, put in Demichelis. :) Also, I do not know why Diego Placente is so low in people's minds!

[perfectdark]

I think that Pato will start after his performance with Boca the other day and Lux is reducing his hopes of starting with his recent form...it is sad but true :(. I guess we only have to hope for the best, but someone needs to tell him to stop leaving his goal in attempt to make some ridiculous challenges. He did it again in the week before :mad:

Also Aguero scored 2 goals last game :cool: He should pack his bags for Germany imo. :D

Why is Scaloni even included in this vote ? What the hell has he done that is so special apart from getting a transfer to the EPL ? He was an average player to begin with, now he is terrible. Every time I hear his name I get a nervous breakdown :mad: :mad:

[givemehistory]

I think that Pato will start after his performance with Boca the other day and Lux is reducing his hopes of starting with his recent form...it is sad but true :(.

Did you even see some of the saves Lux pulled off against Instituto? The River goal was under threat so many times, and Lux had to be on his toes for the majority of the match. He had some nervous moments, sure but the entire team was pretty poor yesterday.

[perfectdark]

Did you even see some of the saves Lux pulled off against Instituto? The River goal was under threat so many times, and Lux had to be on his toes for the majority of the match. He had some nervous moments, sure but the entire team was pretty poor yesterday.

yea they showed that game on fox sport Canada. Lux had a decent game, better than the libertadores game for sure.

[west501]

aaaaaahhh (http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=427884)
I really miss seeing him play and so do barça (3wins 4 draws 1loss)
they won't be able to put a dent in milan without him
hopefully he's getting rested and when he returns he'll be in peak form for the wc

[perfectdark]

aaaaaahhh (http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=427884)
I really miss seeing him play and so do barça (3wins 4 draws 1loss)
they won't be able to put a dent in milan without him
hopefully he's getting rested and when he returns he'll be in peak form for the wc


Just how many muscular injuries did we see this season ( and the past seasons) in Barca ?? I mean they have to be doing something terribly wrong ?? wtf ? ..

:mad:

[givemehistory]

Well, his injury at least means Villarreal could get a good result at Camp Nou. Although I'm really hoping he recovers in time for at least one of the matches against Milan. :(

[perfectdark]

according to Villani, Messi needs 1 month to recover. This means that he will lose all the parties except for the CL final.

:(

[akd]

:( I hope that he is fit for the World Cup

[saurabh]

Barca training program has to be blamed for this. They get him injured, then they are not able to get him fit again on time. Players face muscular injuries because of improper training program.

[perfectdark]

Barca training program has to be blamed for this. They get him injured, then they are not able to get him fit again on time. Players face muscular injuries because of improper training program.

and this is not the first time this has happened in barca.....

[akd]

Is there any way that the MilanLAB can take care of his injury?? I heard that they were able to do wonders with Crespo.

[givemehistory]

and this is not the first time this has happened in barca.....

Probably because of the Nou Camp pitch...I've heard horror stories about it in some reports.

[Vip]

Glad to see the V.2 in full force. Thanx PD. :D


A few things to point out. Messi will be out for 2-4 weeks, as the scar broke and he feels pain again. This is something that happens often ... unfortunately for Barza it is in a crucial time of the season.

As to Pato v Lux ... I guess everyone has a right for their opinion. Pato was outstanding in hte game against Colon ... Lux was ho-rri-ble agianst 2nd division Paulista. To leave your minds a rest ... how many times can you really say that Lux has won the points for River? That is what matters at the end. Every goalie has mistakes ... look at Casillas, arguably the top goalie atm ... or Kahn in last WC! The more Pato plays and TRAINS with the NT defense, the better they will work together ... the better you will see from Pato.

In the WC goalie race, my order of preference is Franco, Pato, Ustari ... No Lux :o ... and this is not biassed 'cause he is a gallina. Based on performance.

Lastly ... the NT doc is travelling today to Europe to see Messi (big worry) and Heinze.


.

[perfectdark]

so messi is going to miss the rest of the season.....

I am sure Pekerman will still pick him even if he doesnt get to play games with barca...at least I hope so.

[Vip]

so messi is going to miss the rest of the season.....

I am sure Pekerman will still pick him even if he doesnt get to play games with barca...at least I hope so.


The NT doc was pretty clear ... Messi would probably be ready to play the CL final ... if Barza makes it.

But Messi is a GIVEN for the NT. Don't worry. ;)


PS: Argentina's YWC champs captain, Zabaleta, was the spark of the title for Espanyol tonite ... http://marca.recoletos.es/edicion/marca/futbol/copa_del_rey/es/desarrollo/638526.html Damn Argientinian's and there singing at stadiums. :D

PS2: Forgot to mention that Aimar is hospitalized with headaches and high fever. Docs can't seem to figure out why. He is out of Valencia's squad for this weekend. :(


.

[givemehistory]

Maybe someone slipped something in his paella? :( Either way, FUCK. :mad:

Yay Zabaleta. Nice to see Espanyol achieve something in what is otherwise a disappointing season for them.

[west501]

man, messi out another month according to sport (http://www.sport.es/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=44&idioma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=295786&idseccio_PK=803&h=)
the most important thing is for him to recover 100%
hopefully this will serve to rest him before the world cup..but still it's tragic for him to miss out on the semifinal, which barça will likely lose without him

[akd]

I heard from some sources that Villani and AFA is pressuring Barca to have him out for a month because they are looking after the interests of the NT, but that he might be fit to play the return leg.

"Pero si se confirma el diagnóstico de Villani, Leo llegaría con mucha suerte a la revancha con el Milan (26 de abril). Porque es una lesión, sí, pero menor..." Direct quote from the article above.

[perfectdark]

Grondona said that the final list has to be approved by him:

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=428411

not long ago I remember him saying that Pek had full control, what happened ? :rolleyes:

[givemehistory]

Grondona said that the final list has to be approved by him:

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=428411

not long ago I remember him saying that Pek had full control, what happened ? :rolleyes:

I hope he's not going to insist on including certain players *cough ahem*, augh.

[Vip]

I hope he's not going to insist on including certain players *cough ahem*, augh.

I just hope that Grondona remembers his Independiente past and "liquid papers" the list to include Aguero in case he isn't in Peker's last 23. :)


.

[Nelly]

Forgot to mention that Aimar is hospitalized with headaches and high fever. Docs can't seem to figure out why. He is out of Valencia's squad for this weekend. :(Suspected meningitis I hear.This could be quite serious.:(

[Vip]

Suspected meningitis I hear.This could be quite serious.:(

Yep ... I just watched TVE and they mention is a benign meningitis thou ... thank God!

Aimar should be out of the hospital in 7-10 days. :o


Edit: Just heard an interview with the Doc that took care of Aimar. It is a benign viral transmitted meningitis ... probably thru the respiratory system. It will take him 10 days aprox in ht ehospital and 10 more days before he can play again. Which means NO MORE Pabito for Valencia this season. :(



.

[givemehistory]

:mad: What next, a brain tumor? He has the worst luck, I swear.

[Xyrus]

:mad: What next, a brain tumor? He has the worst luck, I swear.
AGH! Don't say that!!! :eek:

Pablito is awesome, I hope he recovers quickly and this doesn't affect his spot for Germany. I must reluctantly agree, though, that he has terrible luck. And he gets injured quite often too as he's somewhat fragile-looking.

[givemehistory]

Well, good thing is, it's only viral, and he should be okay in time for the World Cup. I certainly think his performances this season have been more than enough to guarantee him a spot on Pekerman's final list.

[west501]

in 1998 france got the world cup they'd deserved since the 80s in a thrilling match against a heavily favoured brazilian side
in 2002 brasil won cheaply after an infuriatingly easy 7 matches (turkey, china, costa rica, belgium, england, turkey AGAIN, germany)
that should be a new rule, you get to play turkey twice and you automatically win the world cup

anyway, nobody knows who will win in 2006..or 2010 for that matter
but 2014 is in the bag, baby (http://www.clarin.com/diario/2006/04/13/um/m-01176847.htm)
COME ON...WOO
messi will be 26, agüero 25, tevez and cavenaghi will be 30
ustari, gonzalo, and mascherano will likely be on there too
I will be 31 and hopefully have enough money by then to be at el monumental taking it all in
we might as well start celebrating now
ooooole ole ole ola

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/fifa/en/pf/20011221/i/1477361706.jpg

[akd]

in 1998 france got the world cup they'd deserved since the 80s in a thrilling match against a heavily favoured brazilian side
in 2002 brasil won cheaply after an infuriatingly easy 7 matches (turkey, china, costa rica, belgium, england, turkey AGAIN, germany)
that should be a new rule, you get to play turkey twice and you automatically win the world cup

anyway, nobody knows who will win in 2006..or 2010 for that matter
but 2014 is in the bag, baby (http://www.clarin.com/diario/2006/04/13/um/m-01176847.htm)
COME ON...WOO
messi will be 26, agüero 25, tevez and cavenaghi will be 30
ustari, gonzalo, and mascherano will likely be on there too
I will be 31 and hopefully have enough money by then to be at el monumental taking it all in
we might as well start celebrating now
ooooole ole ole ola

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/fifa/en/pf/20011221/i/1477361706.jpg

I will be so old by then :( Anyways, I think Martin Palermo has to have the worst luck ever. He missed 3 penalties in the same game and he got injured by an adboard while celebrating a goal (how much bad luck do you have to have)

[perfectdark]

Chile just declined the offer. They are still supporting Brazil. I hope we can host it with some other country. I will be almost 28 years old by 2014 :D

[west501]

Argentina and Uruguay
even better cos they'll meet in the final
where it's held, however, could start a war

[perfectdark]

this is a guess of the list of 23 by Ole:

Pato
Ustari
Franco
Coloccini
G.Militio
Heinze
Ayala
Samuel
Burdisso
Zanetti
Sorin
Cambiasso
Demechelis
Riquelme
L.Gonzalez
Mascherano
M.Rodriguez
Aimar
Saviola
Tevez
Messi
Cruz
Crespo


So no Lux like VIP said :o I am begining to think he works at ole :D. After watching the milan derby yesterday I can say that Burdisso has really disappointed me, he is too soft and got owned on one occasion by Cafu....cant really put him ahead of Gonzalo. The rest of the list is fine. I prefer D.Militio instead of Cruz because I feel he brings more to the table. and maybe remove colo and put aguero :p

[Xyrus]

That's not a bad list, but I agree that D. Milito should be there instead of Cruz and Coloccini is next to useless. He has his good days, but mostly he just has bad days. I hope he doesn't get a starting spot at least. Good to see Zanetti in there after all the absurd speculation that he wouldn't make the list.

[west501]

yeah, take cruz out, put in milito or agüero
and replace pato with lux and it's a great list

[akd]

What about Lisandro Lopez, I remember how good he was in Racing...I even think that he is better than D. Milito (another Racing idol) but I guess he never had enough time to adjust to the European game...

[givemehistory]

What about Lisandro Lopez, I remember how good he was in Racing...I even think that he is better than D. Milito (another Racing idol) but I guess he never had enough time to adjust to the European game...


He's not doing that badly for Porto, is he? I always check the scores, but it seems like Lucho is doing pretty well. Dunno about Lisandro though.

[mosesmalone]

Lucho and Lisandro are Porto's top two goalscorers, so both are doing well.

On another under-the-radar kind of note, Nico Frutos has 9 goals in just 11 games with Anderlecht, matching his total with Independiente - that's 18 goals in 22 games!

Anyway, while I'm certain Milito is a better player than Cruz, my one concern is having a replacement for an injured Crespo. Should Hernan go down, the team - sans Cruz - would be totally inept in the air. I know Argentina's game isn't whipping crosses in from the corner, but at least having a large frame in the area gives opposing defenses something else to think about.

[givemehistory]

at least having a large frame in the area gives opposing defenses something else to think about.

... (no Crouch jokes here) :p

Good to know about Lisandro and Frutos. Given the current crop of World Cup hopefuls, though, I think D Milito is still a better prospect than Cruz, since Argentina aren't really a threat in the air (except from set pieces, when we'd expect Ayala or whomever the other CD is to move up). Don't get me wrong, I like Cruz as well, but I just don't think there's a place for him.



Also, that list of 23 that Olé put out is okay, except, Ustari ahead of Lux? and Burdisso? Please, no.

[perfectdark]

Does anyone know why Coloccini hasnt played today ? Is he suspended ? He hasnt even been getting too much playing time this season. I think this is for a good reason, he sucked. The only thing him and Burdisso got going is that they can play in different positions....

[givemehistory]

Coloccini blows hot and cold for me. I think he plays well in a 3-5-2 formation where he is expected to be both a fullback and a central defender when the situation calls for it (e.g. against Brazil last June), but when he's used as a CD in a 4-4-2 formation -- at least for Argentina -- he's wandered out a bit too often for my taste. I don't watch Deportivo if I can help it, because I hate that team, but I've seen at least a few match reports that have praised him.

[Vip]

For Peker, Burdisso is the natural replacement for Ayala. Don't ask me why ... I think Gonzalo could do the job just fine based on his performance this season. But as PD mentions, Peker is also looking for polyfunctional players, and Nico can play almost all positions is defense.

As to the forwards, either Cruz or DMilito are the natural replacement for Crespo. I would take Diego (Milito that is ;) ) ... he seems to me a better player on the ground and with speed.


.

[saurabh]

http://www.sportinglife.com/pictures/general/allsportfabriziocoloccini.jpg

I don't understand the criticism of Fabricio Coloccini. I think he will be the best defender in the World Cup if he is given a chance to play. Whenever Coloccini has played for Argentina in any tournament we have looked solid at the back. It is only when Pekerman changed the backline in the final of Confed Cup that we lost to Brasil. I hope Pekerman behaves more sensibly in the WC and plays Coloccini. His performance at Depor should not be considered as a benchmark. Depor play bad football and their manager dooes not like Fabricio. There are not many managers who understand defence better than Rafa Benitez and according to Rafa, Coloccini is one of the best defenders. Coloccini even came to Anfield on Rafa's invitation however Liverpool could not agree upon the deal with Depor and we ended up signing Agger. But it is likely that Rafa will bid for Coloccini again in the summer. He has all the qualities that a good defender needs to have. He is good at tackling, excellent at defending set pieces and a great shot stopper. He is the best Central Defender in Argentina and I hope to see him as the best defender in the World Cup.

[givemehistory]

Whenever Coloccini has played for Argentina in any tournament we have looked solid at the back.

Simply not true. The Confeds Cup squad was defensively weak because of Ayala's absence, and Coloccini didn't do himself any favors, although he wasn't a bad as some of the other defenders.

But it is likely that Rafa will bid for Coloccini again in the summer. He has all the qualities that a good defender needs to have.

Um, not with Paletta coming, I'm afraid.

Plus, while he's good at tackling and heading, his positioning in recent Argentina matches leaves a LOT to be desired. I liked him a lot in 2001, and I do have a soft spot for him, but he still has a long way to go before he can be considered one of the best CDs in the world.

[Vip]

Damnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

It has been confirmed that Gonzalo Rodriguez broke the ligaments of his left ankle in Friday's game against Barza ... and will be out for 2 months! No CL and NO WC for Gonzalo. :rolleyes:

In the same game, Villareal also saw Pena get injured; and Barza saw Larrson injured. What a miserable game for the Spanish teams. :o


.

[perfectdark]

Damnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

It has been confirmed that Gonzalo Rodriguez broke the ligaments of his left ankle in Friday's game against Barza ... and will be out for 2 months! No CL and NO WC for Gonzalo. :rolleyes:

In the same game, Villareal also saw Pena get injured; and Barza saw Larrson injured. What a miserable game for the Spanish teams. :o


.


2 month :| wow unbelievable....and I was hoping for his inclusion :mad:

[chauchey]

http://www.sportinglife.com/pictures/general/allsportfabriziocoloccini.jpg


I don't understand the criticism of Fabricio Coloccini. I think he will be the best defender in the World Cup if he is given a chance to play. .... He has all the qualities that a good defender needs to have. ...
I think he's a bit on the slow side personally. Although i do like this guy alot, and I always look for him in the lineup when the NT plays. I hope he makes the squad, and I hope he plays at least a few caps. He's good now, and hopefully will get better and faster in the future.
I like him. :)

[chauchey]

Also Aguero scored 2 goals last game :cool: He should pack his bags for Germany imo. :D

If this kid is earning his way onto the squad, I think the only thing that will keep him off is his age, and JP not wanting to rest so much of the NT's production on guys under the age of 22! if aguero would go, that would mean that 3 of the 5 or so forwards going would be very young indeed. :eek:

[givemehistory]

It has been confirmed that Gonzalo Rodriguez broke the ligaments of his left ankle in Friday's game against Barza ... and will be out for 2 months!

In the same game, Villareal also saw Pena get injured...

Fuck, there goes the CL. Two of their three starting central defenders out...what a predicament. :(

[perfectdark]

news from pekerman http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=430116
This scares me :"El Mundial se juega cada cuatro años y, si algún futbolista no va a éste, puede no volver a jugar uno. Eso me obliga a ser frío y justo, pero irán los que mejor estén"

erm I hope this isnt directed at Zanetti. He also confirmed that Messi, Aimar and Maxi will go. And Aguero is not likely to go at all.

[Pfhor]

what about el cabezon d'alessandro? the way he's playing over at pompey, he must make the wc squad. however, pekerman isn't probably monitoring his status too much, :(. andres would make a great sub for the LMF or OMF positions, which they may be lacking with Aimar and Messi's injury and no real LMF on the squad. such talent not making the wc is absurd imo.

[perfectdark]

I hear he scored a goal.

[Pfhor]

yea he scored a scorcher last game. everyone is saying its the goal of the season. reminds me so much of some of his classic river goals.

btw the game b4 that, he hit a wonderful fk for an assist. he's on fire and its showing as pompey are the 3rd top team in england in the past few months.

[perfectdark]

yea he scored a scorcher last game. everyone is saying its the goal of the season. reminds me so much of some of his classic river goals. check it out and tell me what you think about, ;)-

http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=other&file=DAlessandro_vs_Charlton.zip

(thanks to pompey lad for the goal)

btw the game b4 that, he hit a wonderful fk for an assist. he's on fire and its showing as pompey are the 3rd top team in england in the past few months.


thx. Yea it seems he is on form. He is also playing in English football and we all know how hard it is to adapt especially for a creative midfielder like D'Alessandro.
His left foot is AMAZING.

[west501]

yeah, get him on board
btw I'm almost sure such links are prohibited as of the april 8th revolution

[Pfhor]

you know what, I totally forget and will so edit it out of my post. sorry maxxed, hope it didn't cause any trouble.

[akd]

What a beautiful goal Pfhor...

Sniff, sniff...It reminds me of his River Plate days...

[givemehistory]

amen; that made me tear up a little. :o

[Pfhor]

yeah, remember those good ole days! what made d'alessandro one of my favorites in the world was watching a special on fox sports espanyol on his last season in argentina, when river won the championship and got pretty damn far in the copa libertados (when boca won it). they recapped all the games and he always stood out as their best player and at times looked like Maradona. damn wish I had saved that special today, so many good clips in it! then he went to wolfsburg and.....:( :( :(

[west501]

man, what an ugly baby
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/anexos/imagen/06/512309.JPG
that picture looks so 1976 too, until you realise that messi was born in 87!

edit: taken from here (http://www.lanacion.com.ar/coberturaespecial/mundial2006/nota.asp?nota_id=799933)..are pics allowed? can't be arsed to read the april 8th manifesto right now

[perfectdark]

Hey nice pic :p

One player that has been ignored during the Pekerman era is Rosales. He is doing well at Ajax apparently ( saw this at Ole :D ) . I have only watched his game against Inter in the CL and he was good. In the Copa America he was very active, delivered very good crosses, and had excellent dribbling. He impressed me much more than Chelito. I guess he worked better with Bielsa's winger system.

It is funny how the squad would have been different if Bielsa was still coach. D'Alessandro in the middle, Tevez playing behind the strikers, wingers, 3 men defensive line. Yep it would have been a totally different playing style. What I liked about Bielsa's team was the aggressiveness and pressure they applied for 90 minutes. Always offensive minded even when the score was in our favour. I wonder if it would have been a better Argentina than Pekermans hmm.

[Survivor]

I would like to know the songs that Argentinian fans sings (spanish).
Anyone have a link to the texts or perhaps you could maybe write it down here? :)

[perfectdark]

just read this:

"Deportivo were reduced to 10 men late on when centre-back Fabricio Coloccini was sent off after a reckless foot-up challenge on fellow Argentine Diego Placente. "

:D :D I dont know why but I found this quite funny. Please Pekerman we dont need that clown Coloccini. He made freakin collection of red cards this season. I would even take Placente who is having a good season ahead of him :o

[Survivor]

What the hell someone out there must know some of the songs fans sing??? :(

[Nelly]

When is the WC squad finalised.Is there a date set when yer man will make an announcement?

[Vip]

When is the WC squad finalised.Is there a date set when yer man will make an announcement?

It is speculated thet the last day that is allowed ... May 17th.


.

[perfectdark]

ya around may 15 the list has to be given to Fifa.

Pekerman is in Spain to meet with some players...new names are being thrown by the media. Cufre of Roma might get called while Zanetti and Samuel might not.

I hope this is just speculation or else I am going to be really pissed off. :mad:

[west501]

I'm gonna go ahead and repeat the cries of pain that we all remember from games: pato nooooooooo (http://www.lanacion.com.ar/coberturaespecial/mundial2006/nota.asp?nota_id=802586)
wtf is pekerman doing doubting zanetti and not abbondanzieri
right back is a lock with pupi still being the top right back in the world
we gotta seal up the goal

[perfectdark]

I have no hope at all with players like Cufre, Ponzio and Coloccini in the defense. Add Pato and you have a potential disaster waiting to happen.
:-\

[west501]

aimar has been playing some fantastic football lately
he's gotta be in over maxi, who's missed a lot of action due to injury lately
then again I never thought there should be a question regarding pablito's starting
just look at this luxurious formation to rival brazil any day of the week

---------mascherano---------
------aimar------riquelme----
------------messi-------------
-------------------tevez-------
--------crespo----------------

looks a bit weak defensively, but then again doesn't it always?*
if they could coexist on the same pitch they would be unstoppable

oh, and before as I was ruminating on pato's infinite crapiness and reciting the familiar 'pato noooo' I got to thinking that's how people talk to their dogs when the pee inside the house..imagine pato as a dog
pato! la puta que te pario! esto no se hace en casa perro de mierda!

*and yes, I'm fully aware that I didn't include the defense in the formation

[perfectdark]

The way i see it, Aimar is competing with Cambiasso. Maxi Rodriguez is competing with Messi and Lucho. I hope Pekerman gives an overview of his formation/tactics/explanation along with the list on May 15. I am tired of this speculation. Parreira already named the squad that will play the first game in the WC for Brazil :eek:

[perfectdark]

Pekerman mentioned 16 players to join him in Madrid according to ole (http://www.ole.clarin.com/jsp/v4/pagina.jsp?pagId=1190242)

This is the list:

Los elegidos son: Roberto Abbondanzieri (Boca Juniors); Leonardo Franco, Maximiliano Rodríguez (Atlético Madrid, España); Nicolás Burdisso y Esteban Cambiasso (Internazionale, Italia); Gabriel Milito (Zaragoza, España); Juan Pablo Sorín y Juan Román Riquelme (Villarreal, España); Lionel Messi (Barcelona, España); Fabricio Coloccini (Deportivo La Coruña, España); Hernán Crespo (Chelsea, Inglaterra); Leandro Cufré (Roma, Italia); Roberto Ayala (Valencia, España); Luis González (Porto, Portugal); Gabriel Heinze (Manchester United, Inglaterra) y Lionel Scaloni (West Ham, Inglaterra).



This is not looking good at all. Scaloni, Burdisso, Cufre ( :confused: ) and Coloccini. :(. I cant believe the likes of Scaloni and Cufre made it to the NT. They should not even be in consideration.

I would rather take Pernia. AT least he had a fantastic season. How can Scaloni be ahead of Zanetti ? Javier is the damn best in the world in his position. I dont understand what Pekerman's problem with him is. Cufre over Samuel ? This is madness. Even at his worst Samuel is still above Cufre. Those players were average at club level and have not played consistently at international level. How in the world is Pekerman going to let them play in a World Cup ? Can someone please tell me what logic is Pekerman using ?

:mad:

[Survivor]

He's probably going to use 3-5-2. So obviously more midfelders than defenders.

[west501]

for my sanity, I just have to assume this meeting is informal at best and that any unlikely inclusions and omissions mean next to nothing
let's not forget that a few months ago he said he had 21 of the 23 spots all sealed up, and that included aimar and zanetti

[givemehistory]

Aaaah! It's difficult, but I'm ignoring everything until the official list comes out. :cool:

[Vip]

for my sanity, I just have to assume this meeting is informal at best and that any unlikely inclusions and omissions mean next to nothing
let's not forget that a few months ago he said he had 21 of the 23 spots all sealed up, and that included aimar and zanetti


I don't want to ruin your sanity ... but those 16 ARE GOING. :eek:

The 8 defenders:
Scaloni
Ayala
Coloccini
Burdisso
Milito
Heinze
Cufre
Sorin

Midfielders:
Cambiasso
Riquelme
Lucho Gonzales
Maxi Rodriguez

Forwards:
Crespo
Messi


Now ... it surprises everyone that Pupi is left out and Scaloni is brought in. I believe it is a mistake. :mad: Trying to get into Peker's head, he might feel the need to have a more defense oriented style of player than a player that can move forward. For this he has great forwards and mids that will arrive to the box.

Also that Cufre takes the spot on Samuel. Specially because of size. Burdisso not as much, as according to Peker, he is the direct sub for Ayala and can play every position of defense.

Not calling Aimar among this group, seriously jeopardizes his chances to go to the WC, as there would had been NO PROBLEM in having him among the group. Some think that Peker might tend to use either Messi or Tevez a bit back, in Pablito's position ... WHEN NEEDED. This would open up another spot for a forward.

Of the 7 missing ... I would speculate the list is reduced to:
Lux (playing Libertadores with River on Thursday)
Mascherano (Corinthians is in shock after last nite and have a derby this weekend)
Tevez (see Mascherano)
Demichelis (Bayern still needs to wrap up the title)
Saviola (preparing the UEFA Cup final with Sevilla)
and 2 of these 4: Aimar, Cruz, Palacio y Aguero. I would take Palacio and Aguero ...



.

[saurabh]

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7601/confedcup29juneaimar2yv.jpg

I WANT PABLO AIMAR!!! He is THE BEST!!! There is an old saying - When Aimar plays, Argentina plays!

[perfectdark]

Pekerman is chosing players that he coached in the youth system. This is a very bad selection. Here is what an EPL fan had to say about Scaloni:


"As a regular viewer of the premiership i have watched scaloni many times and i will pass some facts about him this season. Pardew manager of West ham is returning him back to deportivo after an unsuccessful loan period. And i will tell you why. The man is casual on the ball. He has been deployed as right back and does very little in the way of defending. He is exceptionally slow and has been regularly beaten by premiership wingers and the man will never catch the player again. He will give up chase hoping someone else wil save his bacon. When he is the mood to defend because of his pace he is known to hack at players and has been caught out of position on a number of occasions. I still dont know why he is rated by some managers. HE IS THE NUMBER 1 PERSON THAT SHOULD NOT GO TO THE WORLD CUP ESPECIALLY IN THE PLACE OF ZANETTI"


Doesn't sound very good. I have watched him and Duscher in the past with Deportivo and never been impressed. Also why take him now ? He could have at least tried him in some of the conf.cup games or in some friendlies. What did Scaloni do that was worthy of inclusion ? How hard is it to instruct Zanetti to just assume defensive responsibilities ? I mean seriously Javier is still better defensively.

As for the others, Burdisso did not have much playing time and had some bad games but I can tolerate that. Coloccini had a very bad season with plenty of red cards...not exactly what you need in a WC. The inclusion of Cufre is a complete mystery for me, I haven't heard his name for years...even Roma fans arent too big on him. How can Pekerman make such abrupt decisions before an event like the WC is beyond me.

[mosesmalone]

Ack! :eek:

Coloccini has, and Scaloni had, problems getting games at Depor. Don't you think that should sound off some sort of alarm in Peker's brain? These guys are stuck behind Juanma and Manuel Pablo repsectively, neither of which are even on the radar for Spain. :rolleyes:

You'd think Peker would get his three goalkeepers, and then two players for each position to complete the team, but apparently not. Sure Burdisso and Cufre can play all along the back line... albeit terribly.

What a loon. I'd take Matellan, Lequi, Campagnaro, and Quiroga before some of these guys - and that can never be good. :mad:

[west501]

I am flabbergasted
what the crap is behind all of these last minute changes?
it's gotta be infighting, which doesn't bode well

[roque69]

el pato is a joke, we are in trable, messi and teves are our only hope.
lux is out, as river said that they would let him go to this training section in madrid and carrizo was going to keep for river, but he wasn`t called.
zanetti is out 100%. this coach has no idea all he`s teams including his youth teams look weak in defence, and is more then just players name, is technical.
we need a strong midfield with gara, that have balls no premadonas like cambiaso. i miss bielsa, always liked him, 2002 was not he`s fault.

do you still want the words to the songs.

[chauchey]

I'm shocked. I'm glad to hear that Mascherano and Tevez(the closest thing to a sinch next to Roman) are still going. I would be shocked if Aimar wasnt there. He played very well in the Tourny last summer. Shocked if he didnt go. And very sad.

Also, Samuel...well...he's slow, takes penalties, but is experienced. So what do you do? I dont know. I'll leave that to the scouts that watch all of these players on a weekly basis.

Saviola...havent watched him play since the Confed's Cup.
Aguero...he's suspended right now isnt he? what are the rules regarding suspended players, and in what fasion they can 'sit' games? do they have to be at the games they are missing? can they travel and do other things and still be considered 'serving the suspension?'

Aimar Aimar Aimar...I think he's been playing well when he hasnt been hurt. I dont know what goes on in the dressing room, so with that 'astrix' in mind, i dont know why he is up in the air.

I WANT PABLO AIMAR!!! He is THE BEST!!! There is an old saying - When Aimar plays, Argentina plays!
So true!! :o

[perfectdark]

I am hoping Grondona steps in, I really hope he does disapprove this list. Yes we need multifunctional player...but taking four is a bit excessive. Still nothing is 100% official.

I also think Bielsa was the better tactician and overall coach.

[chauchey]

bielsa didnt tell the players to shoot high on the swedish goalie, which cost them the advance from the group stage. Almost every shot was low. I understand that statistically this is a better shot to take, but if its not working, try something else.

Jose has won championships at the youth level, he's earned a chance. I think that they will bring a very good squad, I think they will do well. I am however, concerned.

I think perhaps he's brought these other lesser players in for 2 reasons.
1) To force his better players to know that their is still competition for thier spots, and thusly bring their play higher.
2) Might not feel that they've been given a through enough evaluation in the scouting reports(or he might have known them from his U-21 days) and felt like they deserved a look.

[perfectdark]

Pekerman (http://www.ole.com.ar/diario/2006/05/06/tapapapel.html)

:D :o

seems like this is the final list. And Aimar is really in doubt. My expectations hit a new low/

[chauchey]

i'm not going to believe it untill i see something on a FIFA website, a week before the tourney starts...I HAVE TO KEEP HOPE THAT AIMAR WILL PLAY!! :o

[west501]

even the often omniscient bbc (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/teams/argentina/4980246.stm) seems unprepared for zanetti not being on the squad
they didn't even realise 2 players on the list are also on inter..unless cuchu and nico are being rested, I can't assume there's anything behind that argument
they seem to take no issue with aimar's absence
I obviously found myself discussing this at a party last night and came to the painful conclusion that pekerman is pulling a 'van-basten' less than 6 weeks before the cup
an analogy which hurts me the most, as I've been calling holland's imminent coach-inspired first round demise for some time now

[perfectdark]

But Scaloni and Cufre are not exactly young. They are old flops that should have never been near the NT. I can understand Coloccini and Burdisso as they will be future NT players in any case, so they need some experience.

Anyways, I think Demechelis will get called for sure as we need a mascherano back-up. I heard Pekerman did not want to interrupt Aimar continuity at Valencia, so Aimar will get called too. Tevez and Mascherano are also given. One more attacker, Cruz, Militio or Palacio. I would have loved Militio as I think he is very lethal. But it seems Cruz will get a call.

+Saviola and another keeper....

[capo]

Wow, theres so much freaking out going on in here, I personally see it as a positive move by Peker. How can you guys have no faith in a man who brought so much joy to our country? His success at a youth level wasn’t a fluke, the man knows what he’s doing, he’s got a vision and more knowledge than any of us fans…that’s why he’s the coach of a national team!!! Let’s give him and a group of players that he will choose to go to WC a chance and save our judgments until the end of the tournament. I don’t know how many of you would agree with me, but in my opinion the best futbol Argentina played in the last couple of years was in Copa America and Olympics – those tourneys brought a joy to my heart and not because of the result, but of how our team played there…that was a pleasure to watch. Now look at the players who were picked to play then…were they absolutely the best at the time??...did everyone you wanted to make the selection went??...probably not, but look at the result. The difference was that players, each of them, had a role on a team and they executed it, there was no egos, no selfishness, our team played as a TEAM, as one unit. And that’s all that matters – if players buy into what coach wants from them, if they give their 120% there’s no stopping them. We all have our favorites, who we think are the best at a particular position on the field, but let’s be honest – it’s very rare to have an “all stars” team to work as a team and play best team game…you gotta have less talented players “garbage” players (if you will) those that will sacrifice themselves, who will put their team first and not themselves, those who will die on the field just to see their team win. Sometimes change is good, it hurts at first, but pays out at the end. Let’s be the real fans and support our team, our coach, instead of bashing them and giving up on them even before the tournament.

The only concern I have is whether or not the selected players will have enough time to gel together, I mean we didn’t have a steady team (same starting 11) for some time now. I don’t wanna see stupid mistakes being made in the game where players miscommunicate with each other. I think that will be the real challenge for our coaching stuff and not this selection period, which most of you label as the pinnacle of the Everest. I don’t remember if it was Pekerman who said that we need to play more than one system, different strategies depending on the teams we are facing rather than one unchanging model and I couldn’t agree more. So, if that’s the case, we will need a range of different players to make that dream a reality :D…for example Coloccini, now don’t get me wrong I’m not hyper about him either and sure we could find much better overall players, but if properly used he can be effective and do one or two things better than someone else. Just because he made the team (still questionable until official) that doesn’t mean that he will play every game... NO…only against team/teams where he can be a factor. Let’s be honest here – we had our “star” teams before and look what they brought us (2002, 98).

So, what I’m trying to say is let’s all stop whining and start being the real fans, instead of thinking about things that could be, let’s talk and analyze each player that will be named to play in Germany and what each of them could bring to the team and why they were chosen, be positive people!!! Let’s cheer and support our Albiceleste till the end!!! No matter who makes the team, I know I will be proud of every one of them when they step on the field!!!

Sean eternos los laureles
Que supimos conseguir.
Coronados de gloria vivamos
O juremos con gloria morir!!!

[givemehistory]

I can't even form words. Damn you all for making me depressed.

[Vip]

I can't even form words. Damn you all for making me depressed.

You gotta see the bright side ... the pic in your avatar can be top $$$ ... if you have the negative/original. :o


.

[perfectdark]

I have to disagree with you Capo. The problem is those players ( Burdisso, Coloccini and Scaloni) had very poor seasons. If Pekerman was truly following them then he would have realised that they should not be included. If he is not taking them on the basis of their overall performance this season then on what basis is he taking them ? They dont have the necessary international experience or even the potential ( Scaloni and Cufre).

If our superstars team failed in the last World Cups what exactly makes you think that below average players will win us the trophy :confused: ?
I realise that we need players that give their all for the team but isn't Zanetti exactly this type of player ? There is simply no logical way to argue the decision of choosing Scaloni over him. It defies all logic.

I have always trusted that Pekerman will make the right decision and field the right team come the World cup. But I have my doubts now. Who will replace Zanetti in the starting lineup if the formation is 4-2-3-1 ? Coloccini already showed that he cannot be trusted in that position due to his lack of pace. Scaloni has the same problem...

[toli]

I have all the right to bash Pekerman when he makes bad decisions. It's funny when people say "oh he knows alot more about the players than we do" when the truth is very far from that. I am 100% sure that Pekerman does not analyze players more than lots of the fans do. When everyone else knows that he made a bad decision on player selection, then it's more than obvious that he did. The only thing coloccini has done is screwed up, and Scaloni is just plain bad. Choosing inferior players especially when the fans can blatantly see the inferiority is not coaching brilliance, it's suicide. Zanetti has been nothing but superb this season, and the only half excuse given for Scaloni is that Zanetti leaves too many gaps when he is attacking, the problem with this excuse is that Scaloni gets beat way more times even though he stays back. Until Pekerman can prove me worng by winning the trophy then I will doubt him whenever he calls up an obviously inferior player, because so far none of these fringe players have proved to be of any worth.

and by the way, the Olympics and Copa America were both Biesla

[Vip]

I have to disagree with you Capo. The problem is those players ( Burdisso, Coloccini and Scaloni) had very poor seasons. If Pekerman was truly following them then he would have realised that they should not be included. If he is not taking them on the basis of their overall performance this season then on what basis is he taking them ? They dont have the necessary international experience or even the potential ( Scaloni and Cufre).

If our superstars team failed in the last World Cups what exactly makes you think that below average players will win us the trophy :confused: ?
I realise that we need players that give their all for the team but isn't Zanetti exactly this type of player ? There is simply no logical way to argue the decision of choosing Scaloni over him. It defies all logic.

I have always trusted that Pekerman will make the right decision and field the right team come the World cup. But I have my doubts now. Who will replace Zanetti in the starting lineup if the formation is 4-2-3-1 ? Coloccini already showed that he cannot be trusted in that position due to his lack of pace. Scaloni has the same problem...

Well ... Gondona is lowering the speech and today declares that Argentina has no obligation to win it all (http://www.ole.clarin.com/jsp/v4/pagina.jsp?pagId=1190752). :rolleyes:

Is Pekerman trying to form a team that resembles the system played at Barza? ... no right back (Oleguer is a central defender adapted there)?

It seems that the explosion of Messi is convincing Peker to use a similar formation to that of Barza.
Pato
Coloccini - Ayala - Heinze - Sorin
Mascherano - Cambiasso
Messi - Riquelme - Tevez
Crespo

Is it enuff power upfront? 4 dedicated to hurt plus 2 more that can arrive from behind (Sorin and Cambiasso)

Is it enuff to defend? 4 defenders and 2 DMs ... could be. One thing is clear. Mascherano hasn't played with the NT in the last few months. Argentina will gain in defensive skills with his return.


.

[givemehistory]

Yeah, that's one of the biggest bright spots of this lineup -- the possibility that Masche will play.

I think I've always had a kinder attitude towards Pekerman than most (it was his 2001 youth team that got me interested in Argentina), but at this point I'm feeling a little skeptical, especially about the defense. But as long as he figures out a formation AND STICKS TO IT (I like Vip's idea, or even a 3-5-2, if Heinze regains match fitness in time), I'll shut up and go with it.

All three of the d-mids are more than capable although I prefer Masche and Micho to Cuchu. But I have no problem with those three rotating/subbing for each other.

The midfield looks good although I really, really, really really really really REALLY hope Pekerman selects Aimar since he can be counted on to do a job if Roman somehow gets injured. *knocks on forests* I can't even fathom being 100% confident in a team that doesn't have at least another playmaker on the bench.

[perfectdark]

I like the Barca formation and it is a proven offensive system that Argentina should be MORE than capable to emulate. Zanetti would allow for greater dynamic on the right side and better defense than Coloccini. But other than that this team should be a true contender to win the competition. All we need is chemestry up front and more defensive awareness which Mascherano should provide.

I hear Messi is recovering fast :) Watching the Valencia-Atl.Madrid game. Maxi scored a goal. Aimar so far has been low-key.

[chauchey]

Yeah, that's one of the biggest bright spots of this lineup -- the possibility that Masche will play.
... I can't even fathom being 100% confident in a team that doesn't have at least another playmaker on the bench.
Agreed! annnddd AGREED! :o

I think teams like the Edmonton Oilers of the '80's, and Barca of this year, have shown that sometimes the best defence is a good offence. If you're scoreing lots, it doesnt always matter what your defence looks like. Although once you hit the finals, unless you're playing a cindarella team, you're probably in for it if you have a weak defence. ;)

[west501]

I heard Pekerman did not want to interrupt Aimar continuity at Valencia, so Aimar will get called too.

I hope you're right!
who better to replace tevez, riquelme, or messi than pablito???
as for the modelo barcelonista, it needs work as we saw in the match against croatia where they were lost for large stretches of time
though I like the idea of keeping messi where he plays at the club level..how gloriously important does that make him to base a change in formation around him!?
barça however, do use an overlapping right flank in belletti..and even oleguer, who many consider barça's weakest player, is offensively better than colo and definitely defensively better than scaloni
for me it's not just a question of who is the most qualified..I've followed zanetti since his first days on passarella's squad, when he played for banfield!
it's heartbreaking to deny a living legend his last chance at the world cup
it makes my heart sink..honestly

[chauchey]

theres no reason why zanetti shouldnt be called up to the NT this time around. Unless, for some reason, the big names in the dressing room dont like him. Keep in mind that he's been the leader of Inter for many years, and they have consistantly underachieved. That said, he often is the only player really giving it his all on the field at Inter, and i feel he should be called up.

If this where my decision, i would have sent a plane for him already. ;)

[givemehistory]

I remember in the old Vamos Albiceleste thread Zanetti was one of the first names on everybody's sheet, along with Sorin, Crespo, and Mascherano. He played very well last summer, so I don't understand why this is happening all of a sudden. :|

[chauchey]

neither do i. i think its just a ploy to get the most out of a few players that Jose might be uncertain will preform at their best come crunch time.

[perfectdark]

Well both Zanetti and Samuel were rested today for the cup game against Roma. Here is what Mancini had to say about them:

http://www.inter.it/aas/news/reader?N=22887&L=en&IDINI=22909


Zanetti has been saving himself all year long to play in the WC. In every interview he mentioned it. To even suggest that he wasnt going to perform 100% is ridiculous. He always gave his all in every game and physically he is as good as he ever was. IMO he deserves to be in the starting lineup even more than Sorin. It will be sad for every football fan to see him miss the World Cup.

I dont think Pekerman is crazy enough to take all four of Scaloni, Coloccini, Cufre and Burdisso. 2 multifunctional players are more than enough. There is still time for him to make the right decision. And seriously how did Burdisso get in before Samuel and Zanetti ?? I wonder if Pekerman even follows Inter. :rolleyes:


EDIT: it seems Tevez was injured ....again. I have nothing to say but :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Vip]

Well ... Aimar was left out of the 16 that got together in Madrid ... and today, in training at Valencia, got injured agian!!! (http://www.ole.clarin.com/jsp/v4/pagina.jsp?pagId=1192477)

Pablito's luck is getting the best of his chances of going to the WC. :rolleyes:

Sorry GMH. :o


La Red's reporter in Madrid states this morning that, from talks with Pekerman, the sub for Riquelme will be LUCHO GONZALES. Peker believes he can do the job just fine. Lucho becomes a double position player ...

Even in that playmaker role, Lucho can end up on the right while Messi swings behind Crespo.

I do like the alternative. Argentina will play a ball control game. Lots of variatons and players that know more than one position which helps the structuring of the starting eleven, but moreso ... can have players ending in different positions thru out the game. Surprise and ball control ... the secret of Rijkaard's team. Peker's secret?



.

[perfectdark]

WTF :| Now he is injured ? Man this is really sad. We will have to wait for tomorrow to see how bad it is. I dont think Lucho is creative enough to be the playmaker. He is very solid with good dribbling and passing but nowhere near as creative as Aimar. If it is not Aimar then we need anoher playmaker, IMO D'Alessandro deserves a shot. Everything indicate that he had a good season in England.

I also really want to see Aguero in the squad. I know Palacio is close to making the WC but if I had to chose between him and Aguero it will the latter. If England's coach picked a 17 years old who didnt have a lot (if any) playing time this season then why cant Pekerman do the same? You gotta have balls to win a WC. :p

From the interviews with Pekerman and the players it seems that this list of 16 is not final. There is still hope for Zanetti and Samuel. I hope pekerman takes them along with Aguero. Four years ago Saviola was on top form and we made the mistake of leaving him behind. Aguero's talent is undeniable, leaving him behind is as bad as not taking Messi. Remove one of the four useless defenders and take Aguero.

In other news, Tevez's injury is not serious.

[west501]

yeah, I've gotten the idea that the list is not final as well
I have faith el payaso and el pupi will be included next week
it's the 15th innit?

[saurabh]

yeah, I've gotten the idea that the list is not final as well
I have faith el payaso and el pupi will be included next week
it's the 15th innit?

Wow! Your first attempt at Scouse, innit? Soon you'll be a Liverpool fan ;)

I am sure Pablito will be there. "When Aimar plays, Argentina plays."

[chelsea_fan]

i dont knoe about riquelme being picked ahead of aimar, the guy is slow can easily be shut down, as in the case of emerson in the confideration cup finals..the guy was ineffective unable to shrug off emerson! I think Aimar would be to quick and possess more trickery for DM to shut him down.

I hope S.Aguiero gets picked! Pekerman better NOt F*ck up!!!!!
I think he has till the 23rd for his final selection.

[west501]

Wow! Your first attempt at Scouse, innit? Soon you'll be a Liverpool fan ;)

I am sure Pablito will be there. "When Aimar plays, Argentina plays."

haha, contrary to popular belief* I am a total anglophile and thus well versed in basic english slang
one of my favourite quotes: "IT is not a word..it's just short for INNIT, innit?" - ali g

*popular belief around the board is created by a blatant anti-english football sentiments, but come that's just football rivalry..the same could be said for my love of brazilian culture and a similar distaste for their national team, our greatest rival

anyhow, aguante pablito
"Pablo, vos sois siempre un caballero / Pablo, con honor y sencillez / Pablo, siempre fiel a sus amigos / vos, sois un profesional / que le pone corazón / con honor ya calidad" (http://www.20minutos.es/data/adj/2006/02/14/78.mp3)
that's right, some crazy tango musician and super fan wrote him a tango (http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/90663/0/pablo/aimar/tango/)
I'll write an anti-pekerman rap if pablo doesn't go to germany :mad: :p

[perfectdark]

^^LOL really lol. :D thats classic :D :p

[givemehistory]

That's priceless, guest501. Thanks for the link. :D

Pablito ... it doesn't sound like they're ringing the alarm bells or anything over on the official Valencia site. Anyhow, we'll find out tomorrow how serious it is.

As for Lucho, he's a great player, but I don't know if he can hold possession like Riquelme can (anybody remember a certain five minutes against England last November?), and I think substituting him in towards the end of the game wouldn't be the best idea. But that's just me; I'd rather see him start matches, either in the center or on the right wing.

[perfectdark]

Aimar is ok :). Lets see what Pekerman does. Personally I truly hate the mind game that Pekerman is playing on the fans and the players. I really dont see the point of it a week before selecting your final 23. It does not encourage player or get the best out of them, I think it is the contrary. I read that Ayala had to talk to pablito and calm him down for not being in the squad.
I hope Zanetti is not all depressed :(.

[chauchey]

Aimar is ok :). Lets see what Pekerman does. Personally I truly hate the mind game that Pekerman is playing... I read that Ayala had to talk to pablito and calm him down for not being in the squad.
I hope Zanetti is not all depressed :(.

soooo...the pablito isnt on the squad? zanetti wont be going?!! AAAAAAHhhhhhhhhhhhh~!!!!!! *POP* Well, thats gone and done it. My heads popped. :( Its all too much. I dont think i'll have to heart to check in to often. I'm all up and down in my stomache right now just thinking that airmar might not make it for any other reason other than injury. :o :rolleyes:

[perfectdark]

watching the Roma-Inter game right now. Zanetti is PURE CLASS. The guy handles dangerous situation with such calm and maturity. The crowd is cheering every time he touches the ball. Samuel has been solid until now. Still the first half but Pekerman has to be watching this.


edit: Cruz scored a goal. He is closer than ever to the WC.

Inter 3-1

well the game is over now. Very good performance by the argentine at Inter. Zanetti should not only go to the WC, HE SHOULD START every damn game. Typical Zanetti performance, no defensive mistakes, very good distribution and pace. I cannot say anymore about him, we all know that he is class ( exept Pekerhead :p ).

Cambiasso was very solid and gave a good balance to inter. He should play next to mascherano in the strating lineup. Cruz had a great game. Samuel was solid all game long.

I saw Cufre, I guess he is decent. But I still dont think he should go.

[malicia]

Zanetti is PURE CLASS.

edit: Cruz scored a goal. He is closer than ever to the WC.

Zanetti should not only go to the WC, HE SHOULD START every damn game.

Zanetti is class. And experience. He MUST go. :mad:
And unfortunately, position-wise Cruz would be the alternate for Crespo and there's no way Crespo is going to be off the squad.

Today during the River-Libertad game the announcers said something about a news bomb inside scoop that Pekerman was going to leave someone off who had been in up until now...and then they never said who it was. I'm thinking it's Zanetti. They also were thinking that Aimar is out. And they were pushing for Di Michelis to be in. And for Ustari to be there.

[west501]

Today during the River-Libertad game the announcers said something about a news bomb inside scoop that Pekerman was going to leave someone off who had been in up until now...and then they never said who it was.

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/10/18/thumb/t048dh01.jpg

[malicia]

Pato? Really? Oh please!
*bats eyelashes*

[Vip]

Sorry to have to be the one who listened to Benedetto ... Ustari in for Lux is what he said. Pato is in and will probably be the starter.



.

[malicia]

Sorry to have to be the one who listened to Benedetto ... Ustari in for Lux is what he said. Pato is in and will probably be the starter.

.

ARGH. I musta been outta the room. REALLY???
most unpleasing (not about Ustari really, I think he's super talented).
Well, at least *crosses fingers* that means Zanetti is going. If Pato's in, (insert deity of choice) knows they'll need the defense.

[west501]

If Pato's in, (insert deity of choice) knows they'll need the defense.

well, let's find out who he's looking at and pick another one
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/10/18/thumb/t048dh01.jpg

[west501]

pouring through the articles I found this quote that should help me sleep a bit more this weekend: "Entiendo la curiosidad y la preocupación de los periodistas, pero que algunos jugadores no hayan estado en la concentración no significa nada. Esto es circunstancial y no implica que no pueda ser convocado", comentó el director técnico. (http://www.lanacion.com.ar/coberturaespecial/mundial2006/nota.asp?nota_id=804967)

For anglos: "I understand the curiosity and worrying of the media, but the fact that a few players weren't in the concentration doesn't mean anything. That's circumstancial and doesn't imply that they won't be called up," said the coach.

After today's coppa italia that you know pekerman was watching (http://www.clarin.com/diario/2006/05/11/um/m-01193816.htm) I am going to sleep soundly.

[Vip]

Just to make things a bit less painful while waiting for the final list ...

http://www.valechumbar.com/item/907/catid/1 :D


.

[malicia]

Just to make things a bit less painful while waiting for the final list ...

http://www.valechumbar.com/item/907/catid/1 :D


.

*deep sigh*

[west501]

hahahaha, that's the other side of the coin when you have the prettiest girls in the world ;)

[perfectdark]

Tentative list from espn.

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=438986

With Palacio and Santana ( :eek: ) or Duscher included.

They have been right so many times before :(

[Vip]

Tentative list from espn.

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=438986

With Palacio and Santana ( :eek: ) or Duscher included.

They have been right so many times before :(


That's what they were speculating this morning on La Red.

For some reason, Duscher is a bit ahead of Demichelis ... Cruz over Palacio and Santana over Pablito. :eek:

Also that Ustari seems to be ahead of Lux.


Monday at 5 pm Bs As time is when Pekerman himself will announce the list. That is 4 pm EST in the US.


.

[west501]

that list is actually looking pretty good and would look great with the following three changes
1)out-pato, in-ustari
2)out-scaloni, in-zanetti
3)out-santana, in-aimar

no-brainers if you ask me
I'm sticking to what I said previously about the madrid meeting not having any final conclusions and am gonna wait it out as sanely as possible 'til the 15th
I'm confident zanetti and aimar will be called
that would be some ploy by pekerman to make two of our top players suffer in such a way
maybe he thinks he can get zanetti to perform the way he did at 23 and aimar to stop acting like a pussy about his chronic (and sometimes inexistent) injuries and play like he did when he first got to valencia
that'd be a reverse van-basten?

I'm sticking to what I said previously about the madrid meeting not having any final conclusions and am gonna wait it out as sanely as possible 'til the 15th

I realise I've totally gone against myself within a question of 30 seconds
pekermannnnnnnn syndrome
might have to call isaa laramendi :o

[perfectdark]

lol guest :D

I am still not sure if this is a mind game that Pekerman is playing to get the best out of the players.

But Duscher ahead of Demechelis ? That would complete the Deportivo clowns trio :p

Santana had an injury and was not supposed to be fit for the WC. But apparently he made a quick recovery...kinda ironic that he would be picked ahead of Aimar. :o

[malicia]

that list is actually looking pretty good and would look great with the following three changes
1)out-pato, in-ustari
2)out-scaloni, in-zanetti
3)out-santana, in-aimar



Agreed with all three.

Man, this is like a scab that you just can't stop picking at. Yeah, we should just quietly sit it out until Monday, but it's so much fun to pick at it, no? :p

[chauchey]

oooo...burn! I think Aimar is a no brainer. I wonder if pablito doesnt make the team this year, if he will ever be able to play for his country again?

[givemehistory]

Man, this is like a scab that you just can't stop picking at. Yeah, we should just quietly sit it out until Monday, but it's so much fun to pick at it, no? :p

Except then the scab bleeds and maybe there is pus as well and then you have this whole mess on your hands and it hurts/itches for days afterward and drives you crazy.

In that sense, yeah, it is exactly like picking at a scab. :(



If Santana makes the list ahead of Aimar I might seriously cry.

[malicia]

If Santana makes the list ahead of Aimar I might seriously cry.

:eek:
I will be crying along with you. Then we can throw rocks at Pekerman. Or maybe we should throw the rocks now?

[saurabh]

Aimar and Santana both will be picked. :)

[givemehistory]

Aimar and Santana both will be picked. :)


Santana on what grounds? Hasn't he been injured recently?

[Xyrus]

I think La Nación was saying that Aimar, Palacio, and Demichelis are all but sure for the WC. I think the list will look mostly like this:

GK: Roberto Abbondanzieri, Leonardo Franco, Oscar Ustari
DF: Gabriel Milito, Fabricio Coloccini, Roberto Ayala, Leandro Cufré, Nicolás Burdisso, Gabriel Heinze, Juan Pablo Sorin, Lionel Scaloni
MF: Esteban Cambiasso, Juan Román Riquelme, Maximiliano Rodríguez, Luis González, Javier Mascherano, Martín Demichelis, Pablo Aimar
FW: Lionel Messi, Hernán Crespo, Carlos Tevez, Javier Saviola, Rodrigo Palacio

Only problem is that there's no Zanetti.

[perfectdark]

Thats not the only problem. The absence of Samuel is still important. What if Heinze isnt completely fit for the WC ? I would rather Samuel start the first few games, he is in great form.

Why is Pekerman chosing between Palacio and Cruz ?? That does not make ANY sense at all. We need a replacement for Crespo. Obviously palacio is not a number 9. It should be between Cruz and D.Militio. Cruz should go.

Man I fucken hate Scaloni.

[Vip]

I think La Nación was saying that Aimar, Palacio, and Demichelis are all but sure for the WC. I think the list will look mostly like this:

GK: Roberto Abbondanzieri, Leonardo Franco, Oscar Ustari
DF: Gabriel Milito, Fabricio Coloccini, Roberto Ayala, Leandro Cufré, Nicolás Burdisso, Gabriel Heinze, Juan Pablo Sorin, Lionel Scaloni
MF: Esteban Cambiasso, Juan Román Riquelme, Maximiliano Rodríguez, Luis González, Javier Mascherano, Martín Demichelis, Pablo Aimar
FW: Lionel Messi, Hernán Crespo, Carlos Tevez, Javier Saviola, Rodrigo Palacio

Only problem is that there's no Zanetti.

That looks like to the list to me.


As to Samuel ... I have always had lots of respect for Walter ... yet I believe Gaby Milito is in a far better shape atm. The man is a leader too.


.

[perfectdark]

Samuel should be there ahead of the likes of Cufre and Burdisso. Milito is a must in the defense of course.

I don understand how you can rely so much on penetration. We only have ONE #9 (Crespo) in the team, and Cruz has had more goals than him. If you want to take 5 strikers then take Palacio instead of Saviola who had an average season at best. Cruz for me is a SUPER-SUB that could be an unlikely hero of the tourney. WHo the hell is Crespo's sub if Cruz (or D.Militio)isnt there ? :confused:

Ok so Scaloni had a decent game today. He was good defensively and delivered a good cross. Still not enough to really convince, and his team lost :). Which would Pekerman take, the winner of Coppa Italia or the loser of the FA cup ? :D.

edit: Scaloni actually sucked defensively :p

[givemehistory]

take Palacio instead of Saviola who had an average season at best.

Saviola was also out for a few months with an injury, and I'd say he played a huge part in his team's run to UEFA Cup glory. And he's the more proven player. Between him and Palacio, I'd still take Saviola, at least for now. When Palacio gets some international experience, that might change.

Scaloni is a joke.

[saurabh]

Lets just wait until the squad is announced. All this just might be a case of Much Ado About Nothing.

[chauchey]

didnt diego milito have an absolutly wonderfull season this year? :confused: I'd pick him over Palacio...mind you, the sheer amount of hardware won by Boca this season might play a big role in him making the team. Knowing how to win in pressure situations is key.

You just have to look at how Gretzky picks Team Canada in ice hockey. although we did loose in the olympics this year, untill that loss, we held every major mens hockey gold medal available. not bad. And his main critiria for his picks? What have they won in their lifetimes.

[west501]

huge difference between pekerman and bielsa
in the latter's highly tactical scheme we were much less concerned with a player's individuality than with his ability to contribute to the system
therefore we would have had little or no issue with a rosales or chelito delgado being included in the 23
however in pekerman's lack of a fixed tactical scheme we have once again come to rely on the individual skills of geniuses like aimar and zanetti and complain ceaselessly at tactical changes to the roster

I'm not endorsing one or the other, cos while it was nice to have bielsa's guarantee I think josé's magicians may be able to take us further than steadiness and predictability

[akd]

Huge news guys, Ustari will be in the World Cup....Ole just confirmed it!! The only problem is that Lux is out, maybe Lux should have replaced Abbondanzieri...

http://www.ole.com.ar/jsp/v4/pagina.jsp?pagId=1195921

[saurabh]

"Mañana, a las 17 horas, Pekerman dará la lista de los definitivos 23 convocados para Alemania." - Ole

I'll just wait for mañana. :)

[perfectdark]

I feel that Lux deserved a place, but Ustari is the future keeper and will play in 2010 so he needs international experience.

Well Grondona approved the list....we will see in the morning I guess. It would really be a great surprise if Zanetti&co are included. But it is highly unlikely :(



EDIT: check out this old pic of Saviola/Aimar/Riquelme

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/coberturaespecial/mundial2006/nota.asp?nota_id=806221

:cool:

[Vip]

I feel that Lux deserved a place, but Ustari is the future keeper and will play in 2010 so he needs international experience.



Completely agree.

I forecast that Lux will have some serious competition at River in Carrizo, in the near future ... and with this I think the days of Lux at the NT will be tuff.


.

[west501]

yeah, but I still believe lux deserved the spot over pato
¡que momento!
not long now

[chauchey]

from what i had seen, i dont think lux has played consistant enough to win a spot(i'm sad because i'm a big lux supporter!). I dont know what the other 2 backups are like, but Abbo was nothing short of brilliant in the Copa Sud final, and also in the Copa Sud game vs Catholica, was awesome. I'm glad they're starting with a goalie that has played in many big big games this year. He will be used to the pressure. Wont crumble as easy.

Scaloni and Cufre...i wonder if pekerman brought them because he didnt have confidence in the other choices to keep their pride in check and sit on the bench without causeing trouble? After seeing Cruz's name at the top of the Inter scoreing list, i agree with his inclusion on the team. More so that Kun's.

Saviola played very well in the Confed's Cup, but i havent seen him play other than that.

Hey, does anyone have any photage on Scaloni, Burdisso, or Cufre? :cool: I havent seen these guys yet, only ever heard of Burdisso before last month... :rolleyes:

[givemehistory]

Abbo was nothing short of brilliant in the Copa Sud fina

He should have been sent off in that match. Blatant use of his hands outside of the box and didn't even get so much as a yellow card. r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s.

He usually does well with PKs, though, at least in the big matches that I've seen, so credit him for that.

[west501]

I worry about the paciness of pretty much all of the ivorians, kezman, and to a lesser extent robben

[givemehistory]

The List

Roberto Abbondanzieri (Boca Juniors)
Leonardo Franco (Atlético Madrid)
Oscar Ustari (Independiente)

Roberto Ayala (Valencia)
Nicolás Burdisso (Inter de Milán)
Fabricio Coloccini (Deportivo La Coruña)
Leandro Cufré (Roma)
Gabriel Heinze (Manchester United)
Gabriel Milito (Real Zaragoza)
Juan Pablo Sorin (Villarreal)

Pablo Aimar (Valencia)
Esteban Cambiasso (Inter de Milán)
Luis González (Porto)
Javier Mascherano (Corinthians)
Juan Román Riquelme (Villarreal)
Maximiliano Rodríguez (Atlético Madrid)
Lionel Scaloni (West Ham United)

Hernán Crespo (Chelsea)
Julio Cruz (Inter de Milán)
Lionel Messi (Barcelona)
Rodrigo Palacio (Boca Juniors)
Javier Saviola (Sevilla)
Carlos Tevez (Corinthians)



... no Zanetti, no Micho, no Lux (well, that I can understand even if I object to the decision). But Aimar is there, so I don't have to go sob in a corner.

It could have been a lot worse, although I fear seeing Scaloni in that right back spot. :o

[west501]

the way I see it scaloni is the 23rd man...there for team spirit cos if he sees a minute of play I'll be more than surprised
4th string right back behind colo, nico, and cufré
5th string right mid behind messi, maxi, aimar, lucho
5th string def. mid behind mascherano, cambiasso, lucho, colo

gotta think that by taking 6 forwards messi is gonna start
and what an honour for palacio..very well deserved
he may see some time yet

[Vip]

http://www.ole.clarin.com/diario/2006/05/16/fotos/tapa.jpg



.

[chauchey]

the way I see it scaloni is the 23rd man...there for team spirit cos if he sees a minute of play I'll be more than surprised
4th string right back behind colo, nico, and cufré
5th string right mid behind messi, maxi, aimar, lucho
5th string def. mid behind mascherano, cambiasso, lucho, colo

I heard that they where thinking of putting in Istari at defence, just ahead of scaloni...:rolleyes:
He should have been sent off in that match. Blatant use of his hands outside of the box and didn't even get so much as a yellow card.agreed. I was shocked as well. i couldnt help but think that someones bank account grew as a result of that decision. :( but i cheered when Boca won anyways! D

[perfectdark]

heh I understand Pekerman's choices much better after seeing this :D :D yep we are destined to win :) ;)

[saurabh]

heh I understand Pekerman's choices much better after seeing this :D :D yep we are destined to win :) ;)

I am glad. :) After all there is Riquelme, Aimar, Messi, Ayala.... YES!!!!


http://www.marca.es/marca_america/homenaje_maradona/fondos/fondo4_800.jpg

[chauchey]

If the players stay healthy, and work hard, as a team, then we shall do very well. I hope for a win, but I'll say final 4, and after that its to hard to predict. :D

[Vip]

These are the numbers on each player's jersey ...

1 Pato
2 Ayala
3 Sorin
4 Coloccini
5 Cambiasso
6 Heinze
7 Saviola
8 Mascherano
9 Crespo
10 Riquelme
11 Tevez
12 Franco
13 Scaloni *
14 Palacio
15 Milito
16 Aimar
17 Cufre
18 Rodriguez
19 Messi
20 Cruz
21 Burdisso
22 Lucho
23 Ustari


* Our lucky number ... our lucky player?


.

[sweed]

no Micho

WTF?!?!!?:mad:

[Unregistered]

No Javier Zanetti? Big mistake. Very big mistake.

[givemehistory]

WTF?!?!!?:mad:


eggzacktly. I personally prefer him over Cuchu, but both have had good seasons and you know Pekerman was never going to choose Micho over Cuchu (who was one of the Los Pekermanboys, if you know what I'm saying).

[malicia]

eggzacktly. I personally prefer him over Cuchu, but both have had good seasons and you know Pekerman was never going to choose Micho over Cuchu (who was one of the Los Pekermanboys, if you know what I'm saying).

Don't think the absence of Micho will be noticed all that much though. The squad looks decent in that sector.

It's the backline that makes me anxious. Try this, put the ones you think will start in their spots then think for each: fitness, experience, speed and skill. Now picture a handful of strikers who will be at the WC running at them...:eek:

[tonymontagne]

I like Pekerman's choices. He has always been a great coach. He seems to know how to mix a group of players well, just as he did with the under teams. I know disagreement is part of the game at this moment, but lets look at the choices, I have to say I like most of them, making an offensive minded team, except for Crespo. I dont like Crespo at all in how the overall team is situated, although he's a natural and consistent 9 that might work well against less established teams.

Too bad Aguero was left out, I wonder if this is going to be the same as el Diego being left out of '78.

It is sad though for the players who were left out, I heard that De Michelis actually cried when he heard the news of being out of the NT.

Will we see an Argentina team like the friendly against Croatia? pure power at the front?

[givemehistory]

It is sad though for the players who were left out, I heard that De Michelis actually cried when he heard the news of being out of the NT.

He gave an interview saying apparently that he'd also lost the will to live. Ach, it's sad but Argentina are pretty well staffed in that d-mid position, as malicia has pointed out, so somebody had to be left out.

Will we see an Argentina team like the friendly against Croatia? pure power at the front?

I think that's Pekerman's plan. It worked pretty well until the defense and Pato decided to suck, so hopefully he can get the rearguard to firm up a bit before the WC.

[perfectdark]

I think that's Pekerman's plan. It worked pretty well until the defense and Pato decided to suck, so hopefully he can get the rearguard to firm up a bit before the WC.

Yes the defense sucked but the offense didnt work as expected. Tevez was a bit isolated, Crespo did not click with Roman, the midfield was almost non-existent and Coloccini was exposed because Messi, who does not defend like say Lucho, was playing in front of him.

It needs a lot more work and more time for the players to develop an understanding between each others. Hopefully with Mascherano and Sorin the midfield will get stronger. I would like Tevez to get a more dominent role in the NT because until now he has been misused by Pekerman.

[Vip]

Will we see an Argentina team like the friendly against Croatia? pure power at the front?


You better rest assured you will see an Argentina that is offensive and hungry going forward. There is great talent, at the right age and that have experienced at youth level the glory of winning the WC.

But, for this system to be effective, it needs to have defensive balance. And here is were many are missing the importance of winning the ball back fast enuff, to have a clean transition to attack once the ball is recuperated.

This is the secret to having a team with ball control and that cause damage at front. And this is the reason why Mascherano will be indispensable. His return to the team is necessary to gain that aggresiveness to win the ball back before it reaches the defenders. And with this, ease the load on the defenders.

In a way, this is the system that Barcelona plays. Where Edmilson is such a crucial player to gain the ball back. We already witnessed the damage that can be created upfront. Without Messi against England, scoring twice. And then against Croatia ... scoring twice again. In both of those friendlies, Demichelis was in charge of the DM. His job was average at best.

As Pekerman already hinted in his press conference after giving the list, Argentina will defend with 6 ... the 4 defenders and the 2 DM that most likely will be Mascherano and Cambiasso. In attack you have the other 4, which will probably have both Cambiasso and Sorin pushing forward as well.

I am sure we are in for a treat of football from the albiceleste. Haven't the youth teams been precisely that?


.

[akd]

I am sure we are in for a treat of football from the albiceleste. Haven't the youth teams been precisely that?

Yes you said it, the youth teams :)

[R9magia]

Sorry for not going through the whole thread but I would like you guys to answer a few questions if you can.

1) I'm a bit confused as to what Argentina's starting line-up and formation will be for the WC. What exactly is Argentina's starting line-up at this point? Do you have a set line-up like Brasil for example or is it up in the air at this point? Also, what exactly is the formation that Peckerman will use. I am assuming (and I may be wrong) that Peckerman will go with 3-5-2 since he (surprisingly) didn't select Zanetti.

Whoever can answer this, I'd like to know if what you are telling IS the formation and line-up or if it's what you THINK will be the formation and line-up.

2) Why didn't Zanetti get called up?

Thanks in advance

[perfectdark]

Sorry for not going through the whole thread but I would like you guys to answer a few questions if you can.

1) I'm a bit confused as to what Argentina's starting line-up and formation will be for the WC. What exactly is Argentina's starting line-up at this point? Do you have a set line-up like Brasil for example or is it up in the air at this point? Also, what exactly is the formation that Peckerman will use. I am assuming (and I may be wrong) that Peckerman will go with 3-5-2 since he (surprisingly) didn't select Zanetti.

Whoever can answer this, I'd like to know if what you are telling IS the formation and line-up or if it's what you THINK will be the formation and line-up.

2) Why didn't Zanetti get called up?

Thanks in advance



1) We only know that Pekerman will play with 4 defenders. Maybe 3 central like you are suggesting and Sorin as a lateral. We dont know how the midfield will shape but Cambiasso and Mascherano are likely to start together with Riquelme in front of them. We basically dont have a precise team but we have a good idea how it might shape up. We might play our own "Quarteto Mágico" :D but this is just speculation. Heck we dont even who is our starting keeper :o.

2) Pekerman said that he wanted to renovate the team. He did not give a real reason for his decision to exclude Zanetti. Pekerman likes to have his own players ( those who played with him at the Youth level) with him in the tourney.


Pekerman is doing the exact opposite of what the Brazilian coach is doing. He is not relying on players who played in the past WC and does not have a ready starting lineup.

[Pfhor]

what I am about to say is just an assumption from previous Argie lineups which Pekeridiot have utilized.

he'll most likely use Pato as goalie with a set 4 of-

Coloccini Ayala Heinze Sorin

Some have said he'll be having a 3-4-3 lineup with those defenders up above except Sorin who'll be pushed up on the left flank and Lucho will be used on the right. I doubt it though, but it would work out for the best imo. what I'll bet on is Heinze and Coloccini will severly underperform (as they have done so in the past in these positions) and we'll all realize that Samuel and Zanetti would've been EXTREMELY useful.

Anyway, the defensive midfield will consist of two players from this combination-Mascherano, Lucho, and Cambiasso. My guess would be Mascherano and Cambiasso, with Lucho coming on for whomever is not performing. Roman will of course start and his three man attack will be-

-----------Crespo
---Tevez-----------Messi

Aimar will be used as a sub for either Roman, Tevez, and Messi; with Saviola or Cruz being the main backup for Crespo.

[west501]

pekerman also promised to change the lineup according to the game
for the first two I'd expect something along the lines of

pato(please no (http://www.teampdafrance.com/denver/archives/duck-hunt.JPG))
coloccini-ayala-heinze/milito-sorin(c)
mascherano-cambiasso
roman(10)
messi-tevez
crespo

for the game against holland, who will undoubtedly attack us (they've got balls) I'd expect something like

pato(noooooo (http://www.stoneriverband.net/images/picoftheweek/oh%20shit.jpg))
coloccini-ayala-heinze/milito-sorin(c)
lucho/maxi/scaloni(shudder (http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/7333/pictures/BobRake.jpg))-mascherano-cambiasso
roman(10)
tevez/messi-crespo

[givemehistory]

Ahahahah duck hunt. Priceless. (Unfortunately, also accurate. :()

[malicia]

guest501 you are brilliant! Still coming off my CL league high so I can laugh. I'll be crying soon enough.

A lot will be riding on Masche's shoulders in these line-ups though. He's really good but I wonder what the pressure on him will be like.

[west501]

Ahahahah duck hunt. Priceless. (Unfortunately, also accurate. :()

and here I was more partial to the big ass dutch shark and sideshow bob :rolleyes:

[givemehistory]

and here I was more partial to the big ass dutch shark and sideshow bob :rolleyes:

Well, only to the extent that I want to shoot Pato whenever he's in flight? :o

[chauchey]

Pato...who's that again?

You know, its alright to have a few week spots on the team. I mean, it wouldnt be any fun if we won it ever year would it?

[akd]

Sorry for not going through the whole thread but I would like you guys to answer a few questions if you can.

1) I'm a bit confused as to what Argentina's starting line-up and formation will be for the WC. What exactly is Argentina's starting line-up at this point? Do you have a set line-up like Brasil for example or is it up in the air at this point? Also, what exactly is the formation that Peckerman will use. I am assuming (and I may be wrong) that Peckerman will go with 3-5-2 since he (surprisingly) didn't select Zanetti.

Whoever can answer this, I'd like to know if what you are telling IS the formation and line-up or if it's what you THINK will be the formation and line-up.

2) Why didn't Zanetti get called up?

Thanks in advance

In "Estudio Futbol", an Argentine soccer show, they were commenting that Pekerman did not choose Zanetti because they were looking for a more versatile player that could play in different positions. I guess that Pekerman saw that Zanetti was a pure 4 and he wanted someone that could play different positions. I personally believe that Pekerman is really shooting himself in the foot with this decision, as Zanetti provides not only world-renowned soccer experience, but he is also a great human being ;)

As for the line-up, I have no idea what will happen. Most likely it will involve a game around Riquelme, like it usually does :rolleyes:

[R9magia]

1) We only know that Pekerman will play with 4 defenders. Maybe 3 central like you are suggesting and Sorin as a lateral. We dont know how the midfield will shape but Cambiasso and Mascherano are likely to start together with Riquelme in front of them. We basically dont have a precise team but we have a good idea how it might shape up. We might play our own "Quarteto Mágico" :D but this is just speculation. Heck we dont even who is our starting keeper :o.

2) Pekerman said that he wanted to renovate the team. He did not give a real reason for his decision to exclude Zanetti. Pekerman likes to have his own players ( those who played with him at the Youth level) with him in the tourney.


Pekerman is doing the exact opposite of what the Brazilian coach is doing. He is not relying on players who played in the past WC and does not have a ready starting lineup.

Thanks, that kind of clears things up. Two more though. Is it a given that Messi will start or is this not really known yet? And lastly, do the numbers the players are given mean anything in terms of who will start? For example, with Brasil the players with the numbers 1-11 are the starters, at least for the first game. I ask because I noticed the players numbered 1-11 are all players who will most likely start (Ayala, Sorin, Riqulme, Cambiasso etc) and Tevez looks like he will wear the #11.

As some pointed out, I read something about Peckerman considering using Barcelona's 4-3-3 formation. That offense would certainly be deadly and the 4 offensive players (Riquelme, Messi, Tevez, Crespo) would certainly rival in some ways Brasil's Quarteto Magico. My only problem with this is that I'm not too sure if Riquelme can pull off the Deco role in the midfield. Obviously not because of his offensive abilities such as passing, reading the game and building the attack (which are all superior to Deco's IMO), but I question if his defensive abilities and stamina are good enough to pull it off.

[west501]

Peckerman

subtle..brilliant :p

anyway
I don't think the 1-11 means much cos saviola won't likely start and other guys like messi, lucho, and maxi have significant chances of finding themselves in the starting 11
you're right, we can rival any attack in the world our cuarteto magico!
though our 4-3-3 differs from barça's in that they usually play with one defensive midfielder and we have two to make up for romy's lack of defensive initiative
plus if mascherano is on form he counts for two players and should make up for all the speed our defence doesn't have

[chauchey]

make up for all the speed our defence doesn't have
aint that the truth some nights! Samuel was a brick in a pool of water out there most nights(gone) and collochini looked weak against Croatia. i'm not sure about the rest of the backups though. never really watched them. But the starters i feel are plenty fast. Sorin, Ayala(mediumish), and Zanetti(oops...wait a sec... :p )

[akd]

I don't think Messi will start, he is most likely to come in as a substitute. I say this because he is not fit to play 90 minutes.

BTW: For all my Argentinean friends, isn't this the worst thing that could happen to us during a world cup???


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgcPdVyujEs

[chauchey]

I dont think messi will start against the ivory coast. but i think come netherlands, he'll be playing 65-70 minutes, starting forward.

[akd]

Good news for Pekerman, Messi played yesterday against our Sub 20 and looked to be quite on form *knocks on wood* He seems to be recovering quite well *knocks on wood*

[Survivor]

I think he will play against Ivory but rest against Serbia & Montenegro. Simply because S&M have a more physical playstyle and he would need the rest in between. He will definately play against Holland.

[chauchey]

Does anyone know if there are any intentions for a capper to get the A vs Angola game on May 30th? :o :D

[givemehistory]

Splatypus is getting it on a delay.

[Vip]

Does anyone know if there are any intentions for a capper to get the A vs Angola game on May 30th? :o :D


Bro, have you noticed this other thread? http://www.fbtz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52269


.

[chauchey]

yes. But i've been spending less time on the site in general these days because of obligations in real life. But i'll start posting in the new thread when I get a chance.

[givemehistory]

Posting these here, since it's not WC-related.

Kun arrived in Spain earlier today:

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/7748/ba8010605101024x7684vd.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8010605101024x7684vd.jpg) http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/8716/ba8020605101024x7686ib.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8020605101024x7686ib.jpg) http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/3090/ba8070605101024x7683wl.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8070605101024x7683wl.jpg) http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/149/ba8050605091024x7687pf.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8050605091024x7687pf.jpg) http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/2401/ba8030605101024x7683hx.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8030605101024x7683hx.jpg) http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/1779/ba8040605101024x7683ar.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8040605101024x7683ar.jpg) http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9799/ba8060605101024x7685rr.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8060605101024x7685rr.jpg)

:)

[Xyrus]

Nice pics gmh...I still think that was a bad move though.

[Mugabi]

Actually, it was perfect. Independiente wasnt a good place for him to develop...

[Nelly]

Could someone tell my the words to that song the Argentine fans sing when swinging their tops above their heads.It's dead catchy and I find myself mumbling along to it.I'd really like to be able to sing along........just to annoy the neighbours sort of thing.

Any clips of it around? Is it the same 'ole ole ola' that River fans sing? Sounds like the same tune.

[Bruun]

I think this is what you are looking for:

http://www.fbtz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54876

[Nelly]

thanks.

*gotta use the search facility more*

[El_Kun]

Posting these here, since it's not WC-related.

Kun arrived in Spain earlier today:

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/7748/ba8010605101024x7684vd.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8010605101024x7684vd.jpg) http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/8716/ba8020605101024x7686ib.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8020605101024x7686ib.jpg) http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/3090/ba8070605101024x7683wl.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8070605101024x7683wl.jpg) http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/149/ba8050605091024x7687pf.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8050605091024x7687pf.jpg) http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/2401/ba8030605101024x7683hx.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8030605101024x7683hx.jpg) http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/1779/ba8040605101024x7683ar.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8040605101024x7683ar.jpg) http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9799/ba8060605101024x7685rr.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ba8060605101024x7685rr.jpg)

:)

One of best football players of the world!!!
Agüeeeerooooooo Agüeeeerooooooo Agüeeeerooooooo!!!

[Vip]

Last practice before the game with Germany ...

http://www.ole.clarin.com/diario/2006/06/29/um/berlin_tapa.jpg


.

[chauchey]

And with that, they doned their armor with the hope of making the opposition laugh themselves into submittion.

I wonder if Scoloni speaks german? :D

[west501]

alas elimination came too soon, yet again
but the way we played is really something to be proud of
I wonder if pekerman was being hasty in resigning cos he had the populous
I think we go out of this playing our best (world cup) football since '86!
but now we start from 0 and this is a crucial moment for the team and could really seal our fate for the next tournament
I'm all for discussing the future, starting now

what kind of coach are we looking for? (along the lines of a bilardo or a menotti?)
what should be the tactics? formation?
what players should be the 'base' of the team? who should be dropped?

I'd have a go, but only if other people are up for it first

[saurabh]

what kind of coach are we looking for? (along the lines of a bilardo or a menotti?)

Rafa Benitez ;) More realistic - Diego Maradona. :) He will always play good players and will be inspirational for the team. Mauricio Pellegrino as the assistant coach. Rafa thinks he will be a very good coach.

what should be the tactics? formation?

Formation should always be 4-2-3-1. There is no better formation in the World. You can easily switch to 4-3-3 while attacking and 5-2-2-1 while defending.

what players should be the 'base' of the team? who should be dropped?

Base of the team - Aimar, Tevez, Messi and Aguero. The defensive star of the next World Cup will be Gabriel Palletta.

Drop SORIN. Because of him we played 3 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders. He did nothing except shout. He is a liability.

[ivanlo]

So...now what guys and gals?

[west501]

Not too much is new, man. I'm thinking about the future of the team after this tragic end to our world cup dream. I was sad to hear Pekerman won't continue because I think his star was rising. While I have to admit I was skeptical at times, the world cup brought something special out of him and brought together the team in a way that made us stronger than any other team I've seen since 86. We had the mark of champions this time around and that's why it hurts so much to have it end this way and have our coach quit at what seemed to be the beginning of a glorious era.
That's not to say a new coach won't be able to offer interesting alternatives. A lot of people are calling for Bianchi (though I have the distinct feeling he'll decline the offer). This will divide the Boca-River camps and I have to say I don't want him because despite his genius and success, he always played ugly results-based football. At this point I'm not ready to offer any alternatives. My only suggestion is to keep Diego as far away from the position as possible! He should not even be on the list of candidates!

[chauchey]

I couldnt see Pekerman not continueing on. I hope that the people continue on telling him we want him to coach, and that he will coach. How can you consider loseing to Germany in the round of 8 a failure? They where the hosts. They got the calls they needed(or absence thereof) at the times they needed. Thats expected. Its hard to imagine FIFA allowing a hosting disaster happen like in Italy '90. :( I look for us to win it in 2010. Without a dout, Messi, Aguero, Tevez, Cambiasso, and a host of others in thier prime...man...i cant wait till the south american cup! and the U-20 2k7! :D

[perfectdark]

Rafa Benitez ;) More realistic - Diego Maradona. :) He will always play good players and will be inspirational for the team. Mauricio Pellegrino as the assistant coach. Rafa thinks he will be a very good coach.



Formation should always be 4-2-3-1. There is no better formation in the World. You can easily switch to 4-3-3 while attacking and 5-2-2-1 while defending.



Base of the team - Aimar, Tevez, Messi and Aguero. The defensive star of the next World Cup will be Gabriel Palletta.

Drop SORIN. Because of him we played 3 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders. He did nothing except shout. He is a liability.


I agree with this man.

Sorin was not worth the trouble, he was past his prime. I still cant forgive pekerman for what he did to Zanetti and for his decisions in the game against germany :mad: because we could have won had he made the right calls. How about using Messi more ? the ref is not an excuse. he did not influence the game and we had the lead. I want a coach who would attack all the time. I would love bielsa to make a comeback :p no but seriously anything but bilardo. giving maradona a role in the next NT wouldnt hurt either. the talent will be there. we just need someone who isnt afraid of using it in big games.

I m sad for Riquelme :( this will probably be his last world cup. he didnt play the role i expected him to but he did a great job. and if pekerman did not remove him against germany we migh have actually won. I wanted him to play in a more attacking position but I guess Pekerman had a different vision. roman played too much in the center unlike what he does at villareal.

[capo]

First of all I couldn't agree more with what guest501 and chauchey said in the last posts - that's classy way to go guys (thumbs up)!!!!!

I agree with this man.

Sorin was not worth the trouble, he was past his prime. I still cant forgive pekerman for what he did to Zanetti and for his decisions in the game against germany :mad: because we could have won had he made the right calls. How about using Messi more ? the ref is not an excuse. he did not influence the game and we had the lead. I want a coach who would attack all the time. I would love bielsa to make a comeback :p no but seriously anything but bilardo. giving maradona a role in the next NT wouldnt hurt either. the talent will be there. we just need someone who isnt afraid of using it in big games.

I m sad for Riquelme :( this will probably be his last world cup. he didnt play the role i expected him to but he did a great job. and if pekerman did not remove him against germany we migh have actually won. I wanted him to play in a more attacking position but I guess Pekerman had a different vision. roman played too much in the center unlike what he does at villareal.

You know it's funny to me how some people praise the team and its coach while they are winning and how those same people turn completely 180 degrees when team looses. After the game with S&M I saw people (on this forum and I dont remember who it was) saying what a great job Pekerman is doing and how we were prepairing for this such a long time...nothing but positive things were thrown out...and now this bull. I'm not picking on you personally don't get me wrong, but learn to loose gracefully...seriously man. So, you can't forgive Pekerman for not bringing Zanetti?? Well, imagine this - "past his prime" Sorin and Zanetti the man who likes to leave right flang completely open, can you just imagine what the likes of Robben, Schwainsteiger etc etc would do to our 2 man defence? And then people would again turn on Pekerman and say what a crappy coach he is.

I read Pekerman's interview when he came home and was ready to talk about anything and questions were asked as to why he made the moves/substitutions that he did...I wish I saved that interview because while reading it I truly understood what was going on in his head and to tell you the truth I agreed with him 100%. It's mind boggling how many things a coach must consider and just thru how much he goes before he makes a decision. There's no right or wrong and you know why...because guess what people would be saying if we won that game against Germany...exactly - Pekerman would be a God-like figure. We scored an early gol in the second half against a home team and you could put Ronaldinho with Messi and whoever else you want, but it wouldn't change the game, Germany would still press the way they did. Messi did come on as a sub versus Mexico and what did he do? He lost the ball...by doing so he created a counter attack which could result in an easy gol yes he also made a few good attacking runs but do you really want to sucrifice your defencive play??? I'm sorry but Maxi vs Messi defencively is not comparison.

The ref could and probably should have called a penalty against Germany in the last minutes of regulation - he didn't, so yeah you are right referee didn't have any influence on the game. "I want a coach who would attack all the time" that just cracks me up...unbelievable, you know just because you can be playing 100% attacking futbol in Football Manager or Winning Eleven doesn't mean that it's possible in real life on futbol's biggest stage! And you know why Roman was substituted because he was tired and couldn't do the job required of him properly.

I want to say this one more time - this is not in any way possible a personal attack against you as you do bring some good points it's just that a few things that you said I heard them before and that is why people around the world think that Argentines are sore loosers. There is no right or wrong a little bit more luck and God knows how far we would go in this Mundial. I supported Pekerman before this whole thing and I admire and thank him for what he did. Is there things to improve on - defenitely, but let's not put man's face into the dirt because a team lost!!!

[perfectdark]

First of all I couldn't agree more with what guest501 and chauchey said in the last posts - that's classy way to go guys (thumbs up)!!!!!



You know it's funny to me how some people praise the team and its coach while they are winning and how those same people turn completely 180 degrees when team looses. After the game with S&M I saw people (on this forum and I dont remember who it was) saying what a great job Pekerman is doing and how we were prepairing for this such a long time...nothing but positive things were thrown out...and now this bull. I'm not picking on you personally don't get me wrong, but learn to loose gracefully...seriously man. So, you can't forgive Pekerman for not bringing Zanetti?? Well, imagine this - "past his prime" Sorin and Zanetti the man who likes to leave right flang completely open, can you just imagine what the likes of Robben, Schwainsteiger etc etc would do to our 2 man defence? And then people would again turn on Pekerman and say what a crappy coach he is.

I read Pekerman's interview when he came home and was ready to talk about anything and questions were asked as to why he made the moves/substitutions that he did...I wish I saved that interview because while reading it I truly understood what was going on in his head and to tell you the truth I agreed with him 100%. It's mind boggling how many things a coach must consider and just thru how much he goes before he makes a decision. There's no right or wrong and you know why...because guess what people would be saying if we won that game against Germany...exactly - Pekerman would be a God-like figure. We scored an early gol in the second half against a home team and you could put Ronaldinho with Messi and whoever else you want, but it wouldn't change the game, Germany would still press the way they did. Messi did come on as a sub versus Mexico and what did he do? He lost the ball...by doing so he created a counter attack which could result in an easy gol yes he also made a few good attacking runs but do you really want to sucrifice your defencive play??? I'm sorry but Maxi vs Messi defencively is not comparison.

The ref could and probably should have called a penalty against Germany in the last minutes of regulation - he didn't, so yeah you are right referee didn't have any influence on the game. "I want a coach who would attack all the time" that just cracks me up...unbelievable, you know just because you can be playing 100% attacking futbol in Football Manager or Winning Eleven doesn't mean that it's possible in real life on futbol's biggest stage! And you know why Roman was substituted because he was tired and couldn't do the job required of him properly.

I want to say this one more time - this is not in any way possible a personal attack against you as you do bring some good points it's just that a few things that you said I heard them before and that is why people around the world think that Argentines are sore loosers. There is no right or wrong a little bit more luck and God knows how far we would go in this Mundial. I supported Pekerman before this whole thing and I admire and thank him for what he did. Is there things to improve on - defenitely, but let's not put man's face into the dirt because a team lost!!!

Well you do have a point, he did a good job but i think he made a lot of mistakes. i ve never said he was a crappy coach. Bielsa had an "attack all the time" mentality. when the team didnt have the ball they always pressed. Holland as well with van basten. it is just a mentality or an ideal. and when we have players like messi on the bench we better have this attitude.

we so easily see how argentina entered panic mode every time they didnt have possession. so why replace Riquelme in the most important game of his life? how was that a good decision? we needed to have the ball so logically Roman should have played the entire game. even if he was a little tired, most of the time with villareal he stayed on until the final minute and usually did a good job at controlling the game. And why Cambiasso? of all the possible subs why chose him? I have watched him with inter for 2 seasons and i have rarely seen him come on as a sub. we were basically playing with 3 holding midfielders at that point and just begging Germany to attack. also if you want to play Cruz at least give him someone who can cross him the ball. I understand the decision of bringing Cruz because he always made a difference coming late with inter. but he had a service there, he had Veron/stankovic/figo always feeding him. If pekerman was expecting cambiasso to feed Cruz then he was just plain mistaken. the subs were too defensive. pekerman needs to have the ball to use his bench correctly. why else do u think we lost? maybe we were unlucky but that cant always be the excuse.

Messi had a great game against mexico, i have never seen a player take on so many defenders at one time. so what if he lost the ball once? is that really a good excuse for not playing him when he was most needed? Also I dont really understand pekerman decision of starting tevez. why play with saviola in most games only to switch to tevez in an important game? crespo was so isolated it was just painful to watch him not getting any sort of service.

Zanetti was not past his prime. Sorin was done, compare their seasons. Sorin was never effective with Villareal this season while Zanetti was always influental with inter. I still dont understand why did we need to drop him especially when at times we lacked his good runs and crosses. Burdisso did a great defensive job as his replacement but he wasnt not even playing his natural position. Sorin was always our weakness defensively. zanetti is the most complete right back in the world. he knows when is the right time to make a run and when to stay back and defend. I mean really since when did he become a liabilty for argentina or for inter???

well I dont remember posting much during the wc so maybe u could tell me where exactly did you see me raving on pekerman? what few things i said are u refering to :confused: nevermind i guess i should be satisfied with this run to the quarter final. :)

[capo]

Well you do have a point, he did a good job but i think he made a lot of mistakes. i ve never said he was a crappy coach. Bielsa had an "attack all the time" mentality. when the team didnt have the ball they always pressed. Holland as well with van basten. it is just a mentality or an ideal. and when we have players like messi on the bench we better have this attitude.

we so easily see how argentina entered panic mode every time they didnt have possession. so why replace Riquelme in the most important game of his life? how was that a good decision? we needed to have the ball so logically Roman should have played the entire game. even if he was a little tired, most of the time with villareal he stayed on until the final minute and usually did a good job at controlling the game. And why Cambiasso? of all the possible subs why chose him? I have watched him with inter for 2 seasons and i have rarely seen him come on as a sub. we were basically playing with 3 holding midfielders at that point and just begging Germany to attack. also if you want to play Cruz at least give him someone who can cross him the ball. I understand the decision of bringing Cruz because he always made a difference coming late with inter. but he had a service there, he had Veron/stankovic/figo always feeding him. If pekerman was expecting cambiasso to feed Cruz then he was just plain mistaken. the subs were too defensive. pekerman needs to have the ball to use his bench correctly. why else do u think we lost? maybe we were unlucky but that cant always be the excuse.

Messi had a great game against mexico, i have never seen a player take on so many defenders at one time. so what if he lost the ball once? is that really a good excuse for not playing him when he was most needed? Also I dont really understand pekerman decision of starting tevez. why play with saviola in most games only to switch to tevez in an important game? crespo was so isolated it was just painful to watch him not getting any sort of service.

Zanetti was not past his prime. Sorin was done, compare their seasons. Sorin was never effective with Villareal this season while Zanetti was always influental with inter. I still dont understand why did we need to drop him especially when at times we lacked his good runs and crosses. Burdisso did a great defensive job as his replacement but he wasnt not even playing his natural position. Sorin was always our weakness defensively. zanetti is the most complete right back in the world. he knows when is the right time to make a run and when to stay back and defend. I mean really since when did he become a liabilty for argentina or for inter???

well I dont remember posting much during the wc so maybe u could tell me where exactly did you see me raving on pekerman? what few things i said are u refering to :confused: nevermind i guess i should be satisfied with this run to the quarter final. :)

I gotta admit some things that you said yesterday it made me feel like somebody just kicked me in the nuts :D. I'm an optimist and I choose to bring positives things out of any situation, can you blame me?!?! You can talk all day about what could have or would have happened...if things were done differently...but let me ask you this - if Cuchu made a crucial interception and if Cruz scored a gol would you be still criticizing Pekerman or weren't you the one after the first 2 games running around with Argentine flag screaming Aguante Argentina, weren't you happy for how things were going?? I know I was and so did 99% of all Argentines. My point is it's easy to criticize after the fact, things could have been different even with the decisions that Pekerman made.

You say Bielsa had the mentality, but how did Bielsa perform in 02 did we wrack up as many gols as we wanted, were you satisfied with the end result?? Don't get me started on Van Basten and how his mentality couldn't get the Dutch past 1/8, how many gols his attacking futbol scored against Portugal??

Well, I always said that Roman needs to be on the pitch the entire game because when he goes we loose it...literally...it makes sense to take off tired and ineffective Roman (tightly marked the whole match) and bring in Cuchu who's fresh and will help defending...if I remember correctly Luchu was still on the field and he was to take on Roman's role, so it was Cuchu and Michu on D and Luchu responsible for attack while still not forgetting about D, Luchu didnt have the best of games...I think it's only natural to try and defend your lead when you are playing against the host with the stadium supporting them along with FIFA officials...this is normal and lots of world class teams would do the same thing.

I would have to agree with you on Carlito and you gotta admit he was great in the game always attacking and taking it to Germany, but Saviola looked great the whole tournament and seemed to combine better with everybody not just Crespo. My guess is that Tevez was brought in as 1)a surprise 2)Carlito is a fighter and better one on one than Saviola, Pekerman felt he was the better option to tear up German defence (also he had to be more fresh and fired up). I don't remember now what Pekerman said about Messi, but when I read it I agreed with him. He didn't just loose the ball, he created a dangerous counter attack, which could lead to a gol, how would you feel if that happened against Germany?

Zanetti is class act and I love the man, don't get me wrong...if you take their head to head encounters than Sorin won (Inter knocked out of CL by submarines), I think it was either Sorin or Zanetti and we all know who was chosen to be the captain. I think Pekerman thought that we've got to have 3 defencemen who would stay back at all times (mostly) and Sorin has a better combo with another integral part of our team - Roman. I think Burdisso's injury really screwed up the plan, everything was working perfectly and the accent was on the left flang where the majority of attacks took place and they were brilliant, but then Nico goes down and Pekerman decides to make attacks more wide, include the right flang, as a result we couldn't do much neither on the left anymore or right because Colo and Burdi are just awful going forward. That's when we could use Zanetti, but would he be willing to sit on the bench and wait for his time to come in, as classy as he is the answer is NO he would disturb the team in one way or another.

Tell me if this is not the face of a man who deserves a second chance:
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8018/joselacaralodicetodo2am.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And you know I would rather go down fighting then be a defending champion with the most prolific attack in the world and not threaten the opposition once in the entire match, so hell yeah you should be satisfied with the run to the quarter finals :D.

[saurabh]

Pekerman did many good things but one glaring negative aspect was his bias towards certain players. I mean for God's sake, Pablo Aimar is one of the best players in the World, far better than Riquelme in many aspects but he never plays Aimar. He also avoided using Messi. He wanted to win with his "pets". Now that is a serious issue.


My point is it's easy to criticize after the fact, things could have been different even with the decisions that Pekerman made.

No. You are not correct. We were happy to win but it was our understanding that in the knockout stages we will use Aimar and Messi. Since that did not happen we are stunned! Look at our earlier posts in the Barrio Argentino.

Well, I always said that Roman needs to be on the pitch the entire game because when he goes we loose it...literally...it makes sense to take off tired and ineffective Roman (tightly marked the whole match) and bring in Cuchu who's fresh and will help defending...

No. When you take off Riquelme you need to put in a player like Aimar or Messi. No one else.

I would have to agree with you on Carlito and you gotta admit he was great in the game always attacking and taking it to Germany, but Saviola looked great the whole tournament and seemed to combine better with everybody not just Crespo. My guess is that Tevez was brought in as 1)a surprise 2)Carlito is a fighter and better one on one than Saviola, Pekerman felt he was the better option to tear up German defence (also he had to be more fresh and fired up).

Did Carlitos take penalty?

Zanetti is class act and I love the man, don't get me wrong...if you take their head to head encounters than Sorin won (Inter knocked out of CL by submarines), I think it was either Sorin or Zanetti and we all know who was chosen to be the captain. I think Pekerman thought that we've got to have 3 defencemen who would stay back at all times (mostly) and Sorin has a better combo with another integral part of our team - Roman.

Why Sorin was not asked to take penalty? What was his role in the team? What did he exactly do in this World Cup?

And you know I would rather go down fighting then be a defending champion with the most prolific attack in the world and not threaten the opposition once in the entire match, so hell yeah you should be satisfied with the run to the quarter finals :D.

No. Satisfaction is a measure of the translation of potential into results. With Messi, Tevez, Aimar, Riquelme, Ayala, Heinze, Crespo, Saviola, Maxi..... we should have walked over Germany!

[capo]

Blah Blah Blah

LMAO no comment.

I don't know how official this is but I heard they named Top 5 Goals of the Tournament:

1. Maxi Rodriguez (ARG) vs Mexico
2. Esteban Cambiasso (ARG) vs Serbia
3. Carlos Tevez (ARGE) vs Serbia
4. Fabio Grosso (Italy) vs Germany
5. Joe Cole (ENG) vs Sweden



*LMAO - laughing my ass off.

[perfectdark]

Pekerman did many good things but one glaring negative aspect was his bias towards certain players. I mean for God's sake, Pablo Aimar is one of the best players in the World, far better than Riquelme in many aspects but he never plays Aimar. He also avoided using Messi. He wanted to win with his "pets". Now that is a serious issue


I kind of agree with this. Not that Aimar could ever control the game like Riquelme but I think making positive changes would have sent Germany a stronger message. Pekerman made rather weak substitutions in my opinion and Argentina paid the price at the end. the changes were too similar to the ones that cost us much against England and Croatia and we kept criticising him for days after those games...it seems he didnt really learn his lesson which is the worst thing.



I gotta admit some things that you said yesterday it made me feel like somebody just kicked me in the nuts . I'm an optimist and I choose to bring positives things out of any situation, can you blame me?!?! You can talk all day about what could have or would have happened...if things were done differently...but let me ask you this - if Cuchu made a crucial interception and if Cruz scored a gol would you be still criticizing Pekerman or weren't you the one after the first 2 games running around with Argentine flag screaming Aguante Argentina, weren't you happy for how things were going?? I know I was and so did 99% of all Argentines. My point is it's easy to criticize after the fact, things could have been different even with the decisions that Pekerman made.

my bad :D i didnt mean to bash pekerman. I understand what u r saying. yes I would ve been ecstatic had argentina won. nothing would please more than seeing Cruz score a goal or Cambiasso contributing because they are some of my favourite. but we really cant get into hypothetical scenarios. The reality is that Cambiasso didnt contribute anything apart from missing a penalty. Cruz couldnt get any service and didnt score. The reality is that pekerman made bad choices. In my opinion we should have opted for players like Aimar and Messi who can threaten with their dribbling and force germany to defend instead of attacking at full force. I wish those changes contributed defensively but they didnt. If Pekerman wanted to protect the lead then I am fine with that, let him bring on Milito and Cufre. The changes he made were too bland and frankly they were useless. We had more chance of winning without making any changes. Failure will attract criticism its just the way it is.

You say Bielsa had the mentality, but how did Bielsa perform in 02 did we wrack up as many gols as we wanted, were you satisfied with the end result?? Don't get me started on Van Basten and how his mentality couldn't get the Dutch past 1/8, how many gols his attacking futbol scored against Portugal??

Well you are right. Bielsa was a flop at the world cup even tho i dont think he deserves all the blame because the player didnt perform at all. when I mentionned Bielsa I had more in mind the Copa america and the olympics. I loved how he used Tevez, Saviola, d'alessandro. the only thing lacking was riquelme. Holland had great qualifiers and were great to watch, sad that they had to be eliminated so early because imo they are much better than most of the other teams. You could also add Barca to the list, they use similar style of play.



I would have to agree with you on Carlito and you gotta admit he was great in the game always attacking and taking it to Germany, but Saviola looked great the whole tournament and seemed to combine better with everybody not just Crespo. My guess is that Tevez was brought in as 1)a surprise 2)Carlito is a fighter and better one on one than Saviola, Pekerman felt he was the better option to tear up German defence (also he had to be more fresh and fired up). I don't remember now what Pekerman said about Messi, but when I read it I agreed with him. He didn't just loose the ball, he created a dangerous counter attack, which could lead to a gol, how would you feel if that happened against Germany?

Tevez was a beast. I couldnt ask anything more from him. but he was way too isolated from Crespo. There was no link. Crespo was just being wasted. I think Pekerman never used Tevez to his full potential and i dont think he fits in pekerman's system. what annoys me more is that I think that Saviola would have been perfect against germany's defense. i dont think they could cope with his runs. Why is messi getting all this criticism? I honestly dont even remember the play where he lost the ball :confused:. dude I would much rather lose with messi playing than watching him sitting alone on the bench in the end of the game. that was way too cruel for pekerman to do. i dont think he would ever cost us a game, i think he would have won it for us. After all he did score a goal against mexico that wasnt counted and had an amazing game.

here is a short clip of that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPh8blb6TLk

I mean i dont kno any coach in the world who would leave him on the bench without at least playing him few minutes.

Zanetti is class act and I love the man, don't get me wrong...if you take their head to head encounters than Sorin won (Inter knocked out of CL by submarines), I think it was either Sorin or Zanetti and we all know who was chosen to be the captain. I think Pekerman thought that we've got to have 3 defencemen who would stay back at all times (mostly) and Sorin has a better combo with another integral part of our team - Roman. I think Burdisso's injury really screwed up the plan, everything was working perfectly and the accent was on the left flang where the majority of attacks took place and they were brilliant, but then Nico goes down and Pekerman decides to make attacks more wide, include the right flang, as a result we couldn't do much neither on the left anymore or right because Colo and Burdi are just awful going forward. That's when we could use Zanetti, but would he be willing to sit on the bench and wait for his time to come in, as classy as he is the answer is NO he would disturb the team in one way or another.

I understand your point by in my opinion Zanetti should be with the team at any cost. The performances that he had with inter this year were superb. I dont see how anyone could argue against his inclusion. I really cant see him whining or creating chaos for sitting on the bench, he is too mature for that. but yes it would be a disgrace for a player of his class to sit on the bench when he could make it into any team in the world.

I had a lot of things to reproach about Pekerman even when the team was winning. The game against Ivory coast where he made bad changes, the game against mexico where we were outplayed in the first half. The only perfect game that argentina played was against serbia. now i dont expect every game to be like that but i wanted pekerman to make positive subs.

I would be satisfied if we had lost with our best players on the pitch. but watching riquelme, messi and aimar sitting on the bench helplessly was something that i will never forget or forgive. there will always be the "if" question. what if messi played ? what if riquelme stayed on the pitch ? what if aimar played .....

[capo]

My bad :D i didnt mean to bash pekerman. I understand what u r saying. yes I would ve been ecstatic had argentina won. nothing would please...

Bielsa was a flop at the world cup even tho i dont think he deserves all the blame because the...

Tevez was a beast. I couldnt ask anything more from him. but he was way too isolated from Crespo. There was no link....

I understand your point by in my opinion Zanetti should be with the team at any cost...

I'm tired of arguing :D...very good points and I partially or fully agree with all of what you said. I'm just one of those fans who would greet the team and its coach with amor uncondicional camiseta like those chicos at the airport rather than burn the statues of people who I admired just yesterday. I gave Pekerman a mark of 8/10 (like most of Ole readers) and voted for him to be our coach like most of the people in the country. There is no question about his ineffective (most of the time) substitutions and just like you said he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes, but what he did with the team in such a short period of time was remarkable, it felt like when you get with your best friends to play futbol and you enjoy every second of it and if someone falls you pick him up and fight anyone who hurts or says something to your friend, thats what it felt like for me with this 2006 team. And that's why I choose to support them no matter what and give our coach a second chance. You all may make fun of me, but I literally cried a couple of times when watching our team play and I didn't feel like that for a very long time. I'm sure that if Pekerman returns, his performance will be evaluated by him (first of all) and by AFA, so mistakes will be pointed out...and IF he decides to return I think he will understand that something needs to be done differently and a change of ways is necessary..you know what I mean.

[west501]

http://www.ole.clarin.com/diario/2006/07/20/portada.jpg

so there's a good chance basile will be the coach of the seleccion 12 years after the tremendous collapse in wcusa94
I have very mixed feelings because I have a strong dislike of the man but appreciate his ability to organise a team (albeit a fragile one)

[R9magia]

Question for you "Hermanos"..How come Bianchi keeps turning down the job?

[givemehistory]

Ugh, I'd still prefer Bilardo or Bianchi, but at least Basile has done the job before. I don't really know what to think about all of this, except to say that if Basile gets the job, Maradona will be given the opportunity to get even closer to the team, and I can't stand that thought.

[Vip]

Question for you "Hermanos"..How come Bianchi keeps turning down the job?

There are deep differences that turned personal a few years back between AFA President, Gorndona, and Bianchi. It is the 4th time that he has been offered the job and turned it down.

Also, Bianchi had some family problems which he put aside while at Atletico Madrid, bit since has stated he wants to give his family the time it needs. He said that if he had 2 lives, he would probably gamble to coach again, but it ain't the case. But what I think is even stronger is that he is still under contract until 2007 with Atletico, a very well paid contract which whoever hires him would probably can't match. Boca Jrs also tried to approach him now that Basile is leaving for the NT ... to no success obviously. Bianchi also has some strong differences with Boca's President, Maurico Macri.

In the meantime, Bianchi has had a few jobs in the media, like being the commentator for ESPN Latin America of the CL final and lately for a Mexican TV group in the WC.

Btw ... he lives in France atm, where his daughter lives and where he has a house since his days as a player there.

Pretty confortable life if you ask me ... at least until mid 2007.


.

[chauchey]

I think Burdisso's injury really screwed up the plan, everything was working perfectly couldnt agree with you more. :( I thought this was the best defence that i'd ever seen wear the blue and white.

Heres a question. With the popularity that Pekerman has among the people...what are the chances that he'll go back to the U20 team?

[Vip]

couldnt agree with you more. :( I thought this was the best defence that i'd ever seen wear the blue and white.

Heres a question. With the popularity that Pekerman has among the people...what are the chances that he'll go back to the U20 team?


Pekerman is done with the NTs for now.

Tocalli, Peker's 2nd, is in charge of the YNTs again ... this is good.


.

[chauchey]

cool. I can appreciate this. I hope pekerman doesnt leave the system. He seems like such a talented coach. A coach that realized the importance of the potential of a team, verses the sum of individuals.

[R9magia]

There are deep differences that turned personal a few years back between AFA President, Gorndona, and Bianchi. It is the 4th time that he has been offered the job and turned it down.

Also, Bianchi had some family problems which he put aside while at Atletico Madrid, bit since has stated he wants to give his family the time it needs. He said that if he had 2 lives, he would probably gamble to coach again, but it ain't the case. But what I think is even stronger is that he is still under contract until 2007 with Atletico, a very well paid contract which whoever hires him would probably can't match. Boca Jrs also tried to approach him now that Basile is leaving for the NT ... to no success obviously. Bianchi also has some strong differences with Boca's President, Maurico Macri.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Vip again.
Hmm..Interesting stuff, thanks for this. I hear it's between Bielsa and Lavolpe for the Boca Job right now.
In the meantime, Bianchi has had a few jobs in the media, like being the commentator for ESPN Latin America of the CL final and lately for a Mexican TV group in the WC.
Yeah I noticed him during the CL. He does a pretty good job actually.

On another note, what a tremendous Volante Velez has..I'm not sure what his name is (I think it's Bustos?), haven't seem him many times but what a player he looks to be. A little competition for Mascherano maybe?

[Vip]

On another note, what a tremendous Volante Velez has..I'm not sure what his name is (I think it's Bustos?), haven't seem him many times but what a player he looks to be. A little competition for Mascherano maybe?

His name is Somoza. He is young and very "complete" ... strong, tall, good ball distribution, good shooting and a leader. Together with Masche and Boca's Gago, the Argentine NT has some serious players for the DM roles.


.

[west501]

velez definitely has a great youth system..that mauro zarate is turning into a better player than his older brother
escudero is also a pretty solid player but sometimes you wonder if they, like boca, are too self serving and produce players for club over country
they have no excuse for losing to chivas like that though
gotta be the off season again :mad:

as for basile..I just don't like the guy
before hearing me call him a great coach you'll hear me refer to him as 'grasa' 'animal' 'ordinario' etc (greaseball, animal, ordinary/pedestrian/ghetto)
just listen to the man talk..he and merlo are two of the same kind (like redknapp in england) of guys that were players with half a brain who are thoroughly unpleasant people, yet are successful as coaches to a certain degree
classic anecdote (probably a lie, yet so believable) is that someone we know shared a meal with coco and was astonished at how he noisily ate an entire chicken down to the bone with his bare hands and wiped them on the table cloth at a fancy restaurant
call me an elitist, but I prefer someone with at least a veneer of an intellectual

that out of the way, he is a pretty predictable reaction to pekerman's cautious football
he'll likely start aimar, riquelme, messi, and tevez and get them to gel
if not he'll replace one of them before too long
so while I hate the man, I do like the possibility of the football that can come from his possible second chance
problem is his teams have no plan B..if the shit hits the fan, and in any major tournament it usually does, it's over
I don't think argentina can win with coco basile at the helm

[R9magia]

Hmm...Here is a question that was posed to me in another forum about Brasil and I would like to ask all of you the same thing but from an Argentine point of view.

What squad do you think should be called up for the Copa América?

Is Argentina going to go all out to finally win a title (not cheap shot here, it's just been a while for you guys), will it be a mixed team (youth and veterans) or a mix of youth and experienced (yet the experienced players are still young aka Mascherano, Tevez, etc)? What kind of squad do you think will be called up and/or what squad do you think should be called up? I would like to see some starting XI's if possible.

And of course I'm interested because you're the biggest rivals :p :D .

[west501]

well we went all out for it last time and had it sealed up before adriano's goal fell out of the sky
couldn't say what'll happen this time..depends on the coach and the players he chooses
I'd hope we go for it..the new coach is going to go for everything in the first year
basile did in 91 and 93, and if (god forbid) he gets another chance he'll likely do it again

[mosesmalone]

That's a tough question, R9. Since Copa America is already coming up next year, there won't be many games to get a look at players. Last time there were a number of qualifiers ahead of Copa America, so I believe 2007 should be used to take a look at domestic players, or players that missed this World Cup.

Ustari
Saja
Cabral
Garay
Gonzalo (Villarreal)
Milito
Paletta
Ponzio
Zabaleta
Arca
Ferreyra
Biglia
Gago
Ledesma (Lazio/Lecce)
Somoza
Francia
Insua
Pisculichi
Aguero
Castroman
Frutos
Lopez (Porto)


-------------------- Ustari ------------------
--------- Cabral --- Gonzalo --- Milito --------
- Zabaleta ---------------------------- Arca -
------------- Biglia -------- Gago ------------
-------------------- Insua ------------------
-------------------------- Aguero -----------
-------------------- Frutos ------------------

[givemehistory]

I don't really have a squad in mind (yet), but I'd love to see Gonzalo, definitely. Ayala's getting old, and while Milito, Burdisso, et al, are good players, I think it's time to start considering the next generation of Argentine defenders.

[givemehistory]

Basile's reign is starting. (http://www.ole.clarin.com/jsp/v4/pagina.jsp?pagId=1252810&fecha=20060815) I would say more about it but I'm still mourning his appointment, pfft. He's contacted 30 players: the 23 from the World Cup, plus Lux, Gonzalo Rodriguez (YAY!), Somoza, Pellerano, Gago, Insua, and Belluschi. He's also shown interest in Agüero, Clemente Rodríguez, Delgado, Cavenaghi (MORE YAY!), Paletta, and Bilos.

One thing that makes me a bit happy, though, is that he sat down and had coffee (Coco Basile? Having coffee like a civilized person? holy shit!) with Hugo Tocalli, who was in charge of "requesting" Boca players for Pekerman's squads. Shows a good relationship, which is always comforting.

Whew. I must say, as much as I'm apprehensive about Basile as NT coach, I'm still looking forward to the possibility of seeing new options in the lineup.

[akd]

Could we please kick out the turtle Riquelme from our NT?? Thanks...

[west501]

I honestly didn't see riquelme in the second half until the 80th minute when he passes the ball in the centre circle
I mean, we were dominating for most of this stretch, but we still need him to be more participatory
I hate to say I called it with basile, but all of my fears came true in this first game..absolutely no plan b..not even a plan a
no target man, scandalous defence
the man has no class, so let's see how he handles this

[akd]

I honestly didn't see riquelme in the second half until the 80th minute when he passes the ball in the centre circle
I mean, we were dominating for most of this stretch, but we still need him to be more participatory
I hate to say I called it with basile, but all of my fears came true in this first game..absolutely no plan b..not even a plan a
no target man, scandalous defence
the man has no class, so let's see how he handles this

I say we send Basile back to Boca and pretend this never happened (him being coach again of the NT)

[givemehistory]

Well, the only thing about that game that made me truly sick was the fact that it was Brazil and not some other opponent. The scoreline flatters them; Argentina penned them back for most of the match (until Kaka came on, I'd say), but couldn't make things happen.

Bright spots: Messi, Zabaleta.

Riquelme with the armband is just creepy.

[west501]

Well, the only thing about that game that made me truly sick was the fact that it was Brazil and not some other opponent. The scoreline flatters them; Argentina penned them back for most of the match (until Kaka came on, I'd say), but couldn't make things happen.

Bright spots: Messi, Zabaleta.

Riquelme with the armband is just creepy.

agreed
what I said during half-time is that 'if we don't change something they will win 2-0'
well we did change positively in the second half and I think a 1-1 would have been the most justified result based on the trajectory of the game
what really killed it for us was that early goal that deflated us after a strong start and their uncharacteristically diligent and thorough defensive work which won't receive headlines but was far and away the strongest part of their game
they came out not to lose this game and ended up with more than they deserved
if they're going to be a defensive team during dunga's reign I don't see him lasting more than two years
as for basile, well this is a nightmare start
my thoughts on basile is that he's a mainly motivational guy who works on sheer momentum
he'll come in with confidence abounding and get a talented team a few big victories and will work with that, and little else, game after game
it's a fatally flawed strategy because argentina are going to win most games anyway, we need a coach who has the ability to plan for us being shut down by a team of slightly less, equal, or greater strength and definitely for being challenged defensively by any team
basile is not that kind of a coach, and for this reason I don't think we can win the world cup with him

[givemehistory]

As usual, all of the headlines say "Argentina outplayed by Brazil." Tossers.

But you know, against Kaka you can't have the kind of backline that we did and expect to get away with nothing.

[west501]

As usual, all of the headlines say "Argentina outplayed by Brazil." Tossers.

But you know, against Kaka you can't have the kind of backline that we did and expect to get away with nothing.

well in terms of the result they totally outplayed us
but results can lie
this aftermath of this game is much like the england friendly in that they beat us last november and thought the world cup was theirs for the taking, well we all know how that turned out
today's result was a fluke, plain and simple and I'd put the onus on our defence (and of 3 identical goals, pato could have stopped at least one!)
I don't think this brazil will get too far after seeing this game..it didn't really answer many questions I had about dunga besides defensive aspects of his game
he's got van basten 2006 written all over him

[R9magia]

agreed
what I said during half-time is that 'if we don't change something they will win 2-0'
well we did change positively in the second half and I think a 1-1 would have been the most justified result based on the trajectory of the game
what really killed it for us was that early goal that deflated us after a strong start and their uncharacteristically diligent and thorough defensive work which won't receive headlines but was far and away the strongest part of their game
they came out not to lose this game and ended up with more than they deserved
if they're going to be a defensive team during dunga's reign I don't see him lasting more than two years

LMAO!!!!!!!!!! This is so ridiculously inaccurate that my first instincts were simply to laugh out loud uncontrollably. I know this is the Argie thread and you guys use this to provide therapy for each other after a tough loss like this, but please, how far can some of you go when lying to yourselves? How much is too much? Maybe some of you don't even lie to yourselves on purpose, you just trick yourselves into seeing something that didn't actually happen :confused:...I don't now, it's the only possible answer I can come up with.

Please Guest, I KNOW that you have a better sense of football then this as I've seen you comment on various games on many occasions. If you want to say some of these things to somehow ease the pain for this loss, then please be my guest, but we both know it's not reality.

The reality is that Brasil came out and dropped one on Argentina right out of the gate. After getting scored on, Argentina folded (like they always do when playing Brasil outside of Argentina) and Brasil took the game to them creating various clear goalscoring opportunities. At the 11 minute mark Elano's bomb was saved by Abbondanzieri. Later, Robinho recieved the ball from D.Carvalho after a great tabela and got rid of his marker with one fast step over..again Abbondanzieri had to come to the rescue with another terrific save. This happened a lot throughout the games, I don't need to bring up every single scoring chance Brasil had.

Argentina came out in the 2nd half a completely different team and dominated the match for the first 15 or so minutes of the second half but even then still created very little scoring chances.

All of you can lie to yourselves as much as you want (I'm not talking you literally all of you..you know who you are) that won't change the facts.

And don't say ridiculously stupid shite like this As usual, all of the headlines say "Argentina outplayed by Brazil." Tossers.
Errrrrrrrr.........That's because they did. The fact that you and your fellow Argies are the only ones that don't realize this says it all.

Soccernet: "A dominant display from Brazil overshadowed any impact that might have been made by West Ham duo Carlos Tevez and Javier Mascherano as Argentina were outplayed at the Emirates Stadium" (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/report?id=205200&cc=5901)

Guardian: Link (http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,1864233,00.html)

BBC: Brazil crush Argentina in London (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/default.stm)

[capo]

Did not see the game live, but when heard the news felt really embarrased and thought to myself 'we got owned again'...finally watched a replay in the evening and to be honest, it was completely opposite of what I thought it would be - result didn't reflect the game by any means of imagination.

What I really don't understand is the choice for a friendly match opponent, when a team just got a new coach and practically a "new" team. Let's say we won this game - there's a huge boost, confidence runs high among the players (which really is a negative thing because there are plenty of things to work on and improve with the "new" team), Basile proclaimed Argentina's savior and we got the bragging rights (the only good thing :D). And as we lost the game - need I give the effects...everybody feels down (players, coaches, fans). Wouldn't it make more sense to start off with some average teams, work out different tactics, see how players react, who jells with who under different circumstances and then when you feel you got the real deal - challenge some big team and test it out???

As for the game, I must admit I enjoyed watching it!!! There's no way in hell that they dominated or outplayed us - finishing was another story, really disappointing. It was nice to see the new faces: Zabaleta and Rodriquez made some real nice tackles, good forward runs and overall looked very intriguing - hope to see more of them. The lowest point I thought was G.Milito, but he deserves a chance for his performances with Zaragoza. Bilos brought out a smile on more than one occasion, he just never stops to amaze me with his soft touch, silky running and hard tackles - what a guy!!! I really think he can be a useful addition to this team and play the role that Kily did in his best days.

Now the fun part...is it just me or does anyone else think that Carlito should play on the left wing with Messi either at the center (where Riquelme) or on the right wing??? It's not just this game...their creativity, tendency to come from the deep and skill would be more usefull there, no? Take this game for example, it just seemed that they created the danger outside the box, but there was obviously nobody ahead of them to pass or put it in (as they were the 2 strikers). As for Riquelme...I'll be honest - I had enough of his brilliance in one game out of 7-10. To see him wear the captain armband and be considered the motor of Albiceleste (Argentina goes when Riquelme goes) is just wrong. He had his chances and didn't produce much like Veron. It seems as though he was born/made to kill the tempo and much of the flow of the game, so why not put him on the bench and use him at the end of games when the team is winning?? It's far too easy for opposition to take him out of it and his defence or lack of it just kills it (how great would it be if he was good defencively - he would be our Pirlo). I really don't like Aimar as the player, but even he would do a much better job than Riquelme at this point.

------------D.Milito/Saviola------------Palacio/Aguero

Tevez/Sorin-------------Messi/Insua/Aimar-------------Lucho/Maxi

Is this formation too much to ask or unrealistic???

To conclude, people need to stop freaking out and give Basile a chance, I mean this was his first game - did you really expect an in-sync playing defence, mid and offence? He needs time just like any coach would with new players. Was he the best choice - only time will tell, but we need to give support...and most importantly BELIEVE!!!

[west501]

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!
Argentina came out in the 2nd half a completely different team and dominated the match for the first 15 or so minutes of the second half but even then still created very little scoring chances.

yeah, this was when we should have gotten a goal
had we, brazil would have folded and become even more defensive and the game would probably have ended 1-1
it's not as one sided as you think..football is much more complex than that
we couldn't get that goal and probably deserved to lose 2-0
is this really that unrealistic?

[perfectdark]

hey R9magia, calm down man. Brazil deserved to win, no one is denying that. They played much more direct football and were just incredible in their execution. we did control parts of the game in term of possession but sadly the team looked lost and our plays were random and without any purpose. There was no offensive unit, just a couple of individual trying to make some "maradona" moves and failing. we were so so aimless, I doubt we had any sort of tactic. Not taking anything away from Brazil, they played great all over the pitch ( still looking forward for Alves instead of Cicinho).

give basile some time, he only had few days ( if not less) with the players. we just cant criticise him right now, he just took the players and put them on the pitch. maybe a start against brazil with so little time to prepare and when Basile is not even officially the coach was a pretty bad idea.

[R9magia]

hey R9magia, calm down man. Brazil deserved to win, no one is denying that.

I appreciate your whole post, but I'll have to stop you here. This is untrue. Just read some posts and you'll realize this. That's the reason I was pissed. You may realize it and analyze football in an unbiased and realistic way (and you got reps for that in the other thread) , but alot of your Argentine buddies don't.

Here are some examples of the biased, illogical and just flat out untrue comments that made me sick from a couple of posters (there are more from others, just don't want to spend that much time finding them)
Argentina penned them back for most of the match (until Kaka came on, I'd say), but couldn't make things happen.
agreed
As usual, all of the headlines say "Argentina outplayed by Brazil." Tossers.
Of course, how stupid can I be. You're right and the rest of the world is wrong.
if they're going to be a defensive team during dunga's reign I don't see him lasting more than two years
Err..defensive team? If lying makes you feel better, ok.
but I'll tell you if you are willing to bet all of your money on this new brazil after a flukey 3-0 jogo muito defensivo display, you are in for a tough couple of years cos dunga will be watching 2010 on his tv like most of the rest of the world

There's a word for this. It's called jealousy ;)

[west501]

Err..defensive team? If lying makes you feel better, ok.


you don't think brazil came out defensive?
I thought their defence was great in that match, as good as I've ever seen it
they were uncharacteristically tenacious and biting hard on every challenge often leaving a little extra to take tevez out of the game mentally (bring back roque junior!)
almost all of their chances, and indeed all three goals came on the counterattack
I'm not lying, I'm just calling what I saw!
does a sceptical analysis of brazil really bother you that much? (mate, I do it to basile, riquelme, and any nation, any club, any player)
do you honestly think this was an immaculate victory with a completely justified scoresheet that had absolutely no chance of being changed?
is this copa confederaciones style vindication of utter supremacy? :rolleyes:

[ivanlo]

There's a word for this. It's called jealousy ;)

Okay, c'mon. After the way Brazil crashed out of the WC and also the way Argentina lost to Germany no one should be jealous of anyone. Yes Brazil played well BUT so did Argentina. Brazil capitalized on their chances, Argentina lost out on theirs. The score could easily have been the other way around. Robinho and Kaka showed masterful displays, while Messi and Tevez didn't seem to get fed the ball enough to show their stuff. Credit to Brazil they played very well defensively and offensively. Shame Heinze and Ayala couldn't have been at Emirates.

[R9magia]

you don't think brazil came out defensive?
No I don't think Brasil came out defensively but that's not even what you said. You called Brasil a defensive team and, IMO, that's just being spiteful and dishonest.
I thought their defence was great in that match, as good as I've ever seen it
they were uncharacteristically tenacious and biting hard on every challenge often leaving a little extra to take tevez out of the game mentally (bring back roque junior!)
And I agree. But just because we weren't doing stupid things defensively and actually played a sound game tactically for a change, doesn't mean Brasil played defensively.
almost all of their chances, and indeed all three goals came on the counterattack
I'm not lying, I'm just calling what I saw!
And this may be the problem. You may be under the false impression that scoring goals on the counter-attack means a team is defensive. FYI, Brasil 1970 scoring over half of their goals on the counter-attack and I shouldn't have to tell you they are considered by many the greatest team of all-time.
Another thing, how exactly was the 1st goal from a counter-attack? HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_F6YQGI0H8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efbtz%2Ecom%2Fforum%2Fshowt hread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D59657)See for yourself and feel free to explain it to me.
does a sceptical analysis of brazil really bother you that much? (mate, I do it to basile, riquelme, and any nation, any club, any player)
No, of course not. As long as it's completely unbiased. When people say things that are blatantly untrue like "Argentina penned them back for most of the match (until Kaka came on, I'd say), but couldn't make things happen.", or "but I'll tell you if you are willing to bet all of your money on this new brazil after a flukey 3-0 jogo muito defensivo display", it does bother me because in this case people are just being spiteful.
do you honestly think this was an immaculate victory with a completely justified scoresheet that had absolutely no chance of being changed?
is this copa confederaciones style vindication of utter supremacy? :rolleyes:
It wasn't a Confederations Cup style win but it was a 3-0 win over our greatest rivals. How would you feel if Argentina beat Brasil in England with the world watching 3-0? Exactly. The scoreline is certainly misleading if you look at possession, but what does possession mean ultimately if you can't create many chances and can't score? Not much. If possession won games Brasil may have 10 WC titles instead of 5.

[R9magia]

Okay, c'mon. After the way Brazil crashed out of the WC and also the way Argentina lost to Germany no one should be jealous of anyone. Yes Brazil played well BUT so did Argentina. Brazil capitalized on their chances, Argentina lost out on theirs. The score could easily have been the other way around. Robinho and Kaka showed masterful displays, while Messi and Tevez didn't seem to get fed the ball enough to show their stuff. Credit to Brazil they played very well defensively and offensively. Shame Heinze and Ayala couldn't have been at Emirates.
Both teams played well but I just don't see how the score could have easily been the other way around. Again, Argentina played very well at times but simply didn't created many clear goalscoring opportunities.

I use the world jealousy loosely but how can one characterize a comment like "Flukey defensive 3-0 win" coming from someone (Guest) who clearly (based on most of his posts) knows a lot about football and almost a makes good analysis of matches? Coincedence? I don't think so. Maybe jealously is the wrong word but most definitely spiteful.

I know I came out a little bit pissed but that's just how I felt. I want to thank both of you for keeping the conversation about football and not resorting to some of the things some people on these forums do.

[west501]

No I don't think Brasil came out defensively but that's not even what you said. You called Brasil a defensive team and, IMO, that's just being spiteful and dishonest.

And I agree. But just because we weren't doing stupid things defensively and actually played a sound game tactically for a change, doesn't mean Brasil played defensively.

And this may be the problem. You may be under the false impression that scoring goals on the counter-attack means a team is defensive. FYI, Brasil 1970 scoring over half of their goals on the counter-attack and I shouldn't have to tell you they are considered by many the greatest team of all-time.
Another thing, how exactly was the 1st goal from a counter-attack? HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_F6YQGI0H8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efbtz%2Ecom%2Fforum%2Fshowt hread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D59657)See for yourself and feel free to explain it to me.

No, of course not. As long as it's completely unbiased. When people say things that are blatantly untrue like "Argentina penned them back for most of the match (until Kaka came on, I'd say), but couldn't make things happen.", or "but I'll tell you if you are willing to bet all of your money on this new brazil after a flukey 3-0 jogo muito defensivo display", it does bother me because in this case people are just being spiteful.

It wasn't a Confederations Cup style win but it was a 3-0 win over our greatest rivals. How would you feel if Argentina beat Brasil in England with the world watching 3-0? Exactly. The scoreline is certainly misleading if you look at possession, but what does possession mean ultimately if you can't create many chances and can't score? Not much. If possession won games Brasil may have 10 WC titles instead of 5.

mate there's no reason to get all wound up over any of this..I see that edit time and there's no use losing sleep over something so inconsequential!
I saw dunga's strategy as defensive from the get-go..a sort of lie in wait strategy similar in many ways to the way parreira played us in that famous 3 penalty game
the first goal comes from a recovery of a defensive clearance (after we had sustained offensive possession) badly headed into the middle by one of our defenders (mistake), which leads to two passes and a goal on the break
that's a counterattack goal
it's just as biased and spiteful to use a highly uncharacteristic display by us (to put it lightly) after two days of training and a scoreline that was highly flattering to somehow translate that to complete superiority and domination
if we had won, or if we beat england, italy, france, etc in a similar way with them just putting on a dismal display I would be happy, sure, but mindful that the game could have gone very differently and will likely go differently the next time

[west501]

if you guys want to hear something funny I've taken a sick day from work cos I have a sore throat
now there's nothing funny about that, but what is funny is that normally my voice isn't too deep, but something about the inflammation has me talking like coco basile :p
I'm just having a grand old time reciting slang with this new voice
I'm gonna freak the shit out of my father and leave him the following message: 'loco, para de hincharme las bolas y levanta el telefono..es coco'

[capo]

something about the inflammation has me talking like coco basile :p
I'm just having a grand old time reciting slang with this new voice
I'm gonna freak the shit out of my father and leave him the following message: 'loco, para de hincharme las bolas y levanta el telefono..es coco'
wuahaha if you could somehow videotape his reaction that would be brilliant!!! I was once a witness of the prank on a family friend...he's quite old cubano who always finds a way to talk shit about Fidel and it always ends in him announcing that if he ever sees Castro - he's gonna kick his ass big time...so once during one of his "brave" outbursts my father's friend walks into the room dressed in green camouflage clothes with a fake beard, glasses, cigar...you should've seen the look on old guy's face...let's just say kicking Castro's ass was the last thing on his mind :D