Reasons why there should be amnesty

[zapbrannigan]

I want to keep this post short and sweet.

We've just seen Italy crowned champions of the world, with a squad composed of mostly of players from Juve, Milan, Fiorentina, Roma, Palermo and Inter. Eight out of the Twenty Two players on the world cup final were from Juventus alone.

How can it be suggested that the clubs behind the Italian national team earned their position Serie A through any means than the merit of these players?

Yes the referee selection in matches may have been flawed or influenced by the top Serie A teams, but this does not equate to match fixing. It just means these clubs were seeking to have a decent referee for a game. In a league where the league chairman is also a VP of Milan (no offence to Milanisti) this is quite frankly as a "crime" mundane.

Now we are about to see the top four teams in Italy, the driving force behind our national victory punished solely for the reason that they are to be made an example of. This will completely f@ck up our national team with our top players scattered throughout europe, sold to the highest bidders. We will become another Argentina / France, with all of our top players playing for foriegn clubs.

Truely Italians are masochists.

Edit: The FIGC should take a leaf out of the FA's books - they are an example to the rest of Europe on know how to look after your own - its to their credit that they deal with matters internally, rather than airing their dirty laundry to the world...

[Silas]

NO, it should not be done, otherwise the game is dead. The B+ teams will just give up hope as they watch refs giving fouls against them.


And Gattuso and Pirlo should come to United.

[Mark the Goalkeeper]

Amnesty! Amnesty! Amnesty!

[Monne]

Yes the referee selection in matches may have been flawed or influenced by the top Serie A teams, but this does not equate to match fixing. It just means these clubs were seeking to have a decent referee for a game.

don't be naive!
if you want to have a certain referee it is because you know he can be bribed easily or has sympathy for your team

[zapbrannigan]

don't be naive!
if you want to have a certain referee it is because you know he can be bribed easily or has sympathy for your team

There has been no money changed hands - if there had been it would have come out by now. In a way I wish the FIGC was like the FA, sweeping everything under the carpet and looking after their clubs rather than looking to screw them over.

[Monne]

There has been no money changed hands - if there had been it would have come out by now. In a way I wish the FIGC was like the FA, sweeping everything under the carpet and looking after their clubs rather than looking to screw them over.

i think you might be a bit biased :rolleyes:
you must realise that their is a big big possibility that they bribed the refs
that can't go unpunished
i'm sure if something like that happened in england the FA would show no mercy

[zapbrannigan]

i think you might be a bit biased :rolleyes:
you must realise that their is a big big possibility that they bribed the refs
that can't go unpunished
i'm sure if something like that happened in england the FA would show no mercy
Sure I am biased :)

What happened was pressure on refs and selection of referee - its not about bribary.

The pressure on refs certainly happens in england - ManU's not getting a penalty awarded against them for example for fear of getting a bollocking from Sir Alex :cool:

[Monne]

what do you mean by pressure on ref?
saying "if you don't let us win we'll kill your children" sounds like bribery to me
(don't think they want that far, but you never know)

[zapbrannigan]

Yeah nothing like that happened, nor has anyone suggested it either - that's why we're masochists - the press hyped it so much so it became a "match fixing scandal" to the rest of europe :(

[Monne]

then what do you understand from "pressure on referees" ?

[zapbrannigan]

You need to watch RAI, and the Mediaset channels to understand pressure these guys are under :). Every decision in every game is looked at for about 5 minutes each, every sunday evening, with slomo replays inspecting every decisicion a ref makes. The refs are then "judged" by a panel of experts on how they performed :).

The clubs themselves, well there are a few instances of "pressure":

- Moggy locked a ref in a changing room and took the piss out of the guy for a bit. They are old friends.

- A Milan associate phoned up a official and complained about a linesman's decision that lost Milan the game.

- Moggy was caught on tape phoning up the preseident of the league and asking for a different ref on a game.

- DeSanctis a Italian ref, who was supposed to represent Italy at the world cup was accussed of bias for Juve. He refereed 3 games for Juve, 2 of which Juve lost...

Thats about it :rolleyes:

[King Kenny]

Yeah nothing like that happened, nor has anyone suggested it either - that's why we're masochists - the press hyped it so much so it became a "match fixing scandal" to the rest of europe :(
And I suppose this conversation, that was taped and aired to the world, was just made up?

February 9, 2005 between Moggi and Paolo Bergamo (the Federation’s official responsible for allocation of referees):

Moggi: “Right, here’s what I was thinking.”

Bergamo: “Let’s hear it. Let’s see what matches up with what I was thinking. Who have you put where?”

Moggi: “Right, I’ve arranged Inter-Roma, Juve-Udinese, Reggina-Milan, Fiorentina-Parma, and Siena-Messina. I’ve gone with [referees] Bertini, Paparesta, Trefolini, Racalbuto; I’d put Tombolini to start with, but he made a right cock-up of things with Lazio. He gave that penalty…”

Bergamo: “I wanted to make Tombolini miss a weekend, because he made that mistake. If you never punish people…”

Moggi: “If you don’t punish Collina and Rosetti, all the rest will think they’ve got carte blanche to make whatever decisions they want.”


---

Or this conversation between referee’s observer Pietro Ingargiola and Tullio Lanese (president of the Italian referees association):

Ingargiola: “I’ve never seen anything like it in my life. Moggi and Giraudo go in, and Moggi starts really threatening him, with his finger right up to the referee’s eye. He was shouting at the linesman too, ‘You’re an absolute disgrace, not giving that penalty, how dare you?’ I pretended not to see anything and went to the toilet.”

---

Or the very same incident as related by Moggi:

Moggi: “I locked the referee (Paparesta) and linesmen in the toilet and took the keys away with me to the airport.”

---

Or any of the witness statements and stories of referees never having to pay for meals in Moggi's restaurants, or of expense accounts for them, or the "secretaries" that Moggi hired for any referee that wanted one...


How the fuck is the arranging of referees to give the decisions and create the results that you want in any way tolerable? What has been the point of having Serie A played at all? Leniancy? You've got to be a gullible moron if you can in any way condone what has happened - YOU HAVE BEEN TAKEN FOR A FOOL BY THESE PEOPLE!

I accept the players may not have been involved (but certainly there are plenty of them possibly implicated), but that just means the players should not be prosecuted. The clubs involved, however, are responsible as business entities for those that run it and those that it employs.


PS: Exactly what has the FA swept under the carpet? You seem to know so little about what's happened in Italy I'd love to hear the revelations of scandal in England.

[Butterfly]

About the national team, there will be no problems cause all good italians players will go to the most famous clus of Europe and often on loan.
About the amnesty, if there is one, the italian football will not have anymore credibility. Sometimes you just have to accept the punishment and to work as much as possible to be back on top.

[zapbrannigan]

How the fuck is the arranging of referees to give the decisions and create the results that you want in any way tolerable? What has been the point of having Serie A played at all? Leniancy? You've got to be a gullible moron if you can in any way condone what has happened - YOU HAVE BEEN TAKEN FOR A FOOL BY THESE PEOPLE!

I accept the players may not have been involved (but certainly there are plenty of them possibly implicated), but that just means the players should not be prosecuted. The clubs involved, however, are responsible as business entities for those that run it and those that it employs.


Why are you swearing?

My point on the original post is that the top teams are at top teams because of the players. To punish a business you sanction them with financial penalties. To put them down to division Serie B, C will cost them money yes, but it costs Italian football more.

[leoni11]

oh bugger, I dont want no amnesty.. i think everyone involved in this greasy story shall be punished. And many teams involved is no justification for amnesty. And with nothing happening, by nothing i mean "just" point deduction, wont clear the name of italian football.
Having said that I'm not gonna start speculating what will/should happen to teams/players involved until verdict is out.

peace out :)

[narduch]

There must not be amnesty. Period.

Moggi was running an eloborate reffing selection scheme. One that also included getting players suspended a week before they were suppose to play Juve.

All those involved (including teams) must be punished. If they are not, I will stop following Serie A. I'll still follow the national team.

The only thing I'm worried about is that I haven't heard anything on what's being done to ensure that stuff like this doesn't happen again. The people who run the league need to be totally independent of the people who run the clubs. The conflicts of interest need to end.

[King Kenny]

Why are you swearing?

My point on the original post is that the top teams are at top teams because of the players. To punish a business you sanction them with financial penalties. To put them down to division Serie B, C will cost them money yes, but it costs Italian football more.In other words: much like the doping scandal of a few years ago, let's forget all about it and keep the status quo?

If the teams achieved their glory through the strength of the teams then there'd be no need to appoint the referees to give the desired outcome.

Italian football now is as big a farce as WWF wrestling: the outcomes and results agreed beforehand and the 90 minutes pitchtime played for a gullible and ignorant audience...that even when they know what they've seen is fixed are so apathetic as to not want any changes to the theatre - and I use that in the sense of 'scripted' and 'predefined' - that they see before them. :confused:

What has happened in Italy is the worst crime to have happened to football since the game was invented. Occassionally there has been an instance of match fixing in other major leagues, the revelations in Germany last year for example, but never has there been in football (to my knowledge) such an institutionalised perversion of a league that makes a mockery not just of Italy but of all European competition that these teams have been involved in for years, perhaps for the entire decade he's been at Juve and possibly further back.

It will damage Italian football? Are you kidding me? The only way Italian football will have any credibility is if the most severe of punishment is taken. Currently, amongst anyone I talk to that knows anything about football, the Italian league is a joke, a plaything of the rich that they spoonfeed to those that know nothing better.


PS: I swear because I want to.

[zapbrannigan]

Italian football now is as big a farce as WWF wrestling: the outcomes and results agreed beforehand and the 90 minutes pitchtime played for a gullible and ignorant audience...that even when they know what they've seen is fixed are so apathetic as to not want any changes to the theatre - and I use that in the sense of 'scripted' and 'predefined' - that they see before them. :confused:

What has happened in Italy is the worst crime to have happened to football since the game was invented. Occassionally there has been an instance of match fixing in other major leagues, the revelations in Germany last year for example, but never has there been in football (to my knowledge) such an institutionalised perversion of a league that makes a mockery not just of Italy but of all European competition that these teams have been involved in for years, perhaps for the entire decade he's been at Juve and possibly further back.

Huh? I don't think you watch Serie A. As for the quality of the sides, Italian football consistantly achieve highly in all the european competitions.

It will damage Italian football? Are you kidding me? The only way Italian football will have any credibility is if the most severe of punishment is taken. Currently, amongst anyone I talk to that knows anything about football, the Italian league is a joke, a plaything of the rich that they spoonfeed to those that know nothing better.

Italian football just won the world cup - bunch of jokers eh? ;)

PS: I swear because I want to.

Not if you want to debate with me.

[Monne]

Why are you swearing?

My point on the original post is that the top teams are at top teams because of the players. To punish a business you sanction them with financial penalties. To put them down to division Serie B, C will cost them money yes, but it costs Italian football more.

well then they shouldn't have allowed it maybe? :rolleyes:
relegation is the only sollution, if you like it or not!

[zapbrannigan]

well then they shouldn't have allowed it maybe? :rolleyes:
relegation is the only sollution, if you like it or not!

Yeah you're right, I don't like it ;)

[King Kenny]

Huh? I don't think you watch Serie A. As for the quality of the sides, Italian football consistantly achieve highly in all the european competitions."As for the quality of the sides"...did a monkey fart somewhere? Who here is debating the strength of Juve, Milan, or any other team? We're discussing the appropriateness of those teams having justifiably (i.e. with no fixing of matches) finished at the top of the league and entered the Champions League.

On league positions, Italy's CL reps for 06/07:
Juve, Milan, Inter, Fiorentina

What it may be without those involved in match fixing:
Inter, Roma, Chievo, Palermo

Which teams should've played in the previous years that the corruption was taking place, which teams genuinely deserved their league positions and which teams cheated?

Italian football just won the world cup - bunch of jokers eh? ;) What the fuck does the quality of the players / their ability / the quality of their coach / their formation / etc. on the national team have to do with corruption and the fixing of matches in the domestic league? :confused: Hey, Italy won the World Cup, let's suspend the rule of law, financial accountability and remove corruption, bribery, solicitation, and blackmail from statute. :rolleyes:

Not if you want to debate with me.What debate? You throw random responses that it no way correlate to the issues at hand. Read back your own previous post and explain how your responses tally with the points made.

[Labfm1]

"As for the quality of the sides"...did a monkey fart somewhere? Who here is debating the strength of Juve, Milan, or any other team? We're discussing the appropriateness of those teams having justifiably (i.e. with no fixing of matches) finished at the top of the league and entered the Champions League.

On league positions, Italy's CL reps for 06/07:
Juve, Milan, Inter, Fiorentina

What it may be without those involved in match fixing:
Inter, Roma, Chievo, Palermo

Which teams should've played in the previous years that the corruption was taking place, which teams genuinely deserved their league positions and which teams cheated?

What the fuck does the quality of the players / their ability / the quality of their coach / their formation / etc. on the national team have to do with corruption and the fixing of matches in the domestic league? :confused: Hey, Italy won the World Cup, let's suspend the rule of law, financial accountability and remove corruption, bribery, solicitation, and blackmail from statute. :rolleyes:

What debate? You throw random responses that it no way correlate to the issues at hand. Read back your own previous post and explain how your responses tally with the points made.

very well said and i agree with you totally...

some of those conversations you posted are astonishing!
can you post a link to ALL the phone taps? (translated of course, please)

i thought i read a while ago that Moggi offered a ref a maserati...

don't even bother to comment to some of these juve-supporting assholes...
they don't realize that their club won the league because of ref selection, NOT THEIR OWN ABILITY!

on one of the convo's you posted, I see moggi talks about selecting the refs for all the games, not just Juve's own....that is just horrible...so, as you correctly said, the serie A was a farce like WWF...the desired outcome of the league was already decided........

i hope moggi goes to jail and not receive some petty fine...
the sad thing about this is, do we really know how long this has been going on??

i believe firmly, that this shit started around 1995-1996...

for a while i thought Inter were just not good enough...
but now i know why we couldn't win a schudetto :(

juve supporters have been heg repping me saying that inter blows and will never win a schudetto...but after reading what kk posted, it means that moggi was appointing refs for Inter games as well....hmmmm...

[zapbrannigan]

"As for the quality of the sides"...did a monkey fart somewhere? Who here is debating the strength of Juve, Milan, or any other team? We're discussing the appropriateness of those teams having justifiably (i.e. with no fixing of matches) finished at the top of the league and entered the Champions League.

On league positions, Italy's CL reps for 06/07:
Juve, Milan, Inter, Fiorentina

What it may be without those involved in match fixing:
Inter, Roma, Chievo, Palermo

Which teams should've played in the previous years that the corruption was taking place, which teams genuinely deserved their league positions and which teams cheated?

Juve, Milan, Inter, Fiorentina


What the fuck does the quality of the players / their ability / the quality of their coach / their formation / etc. on the national team have to do with corruption and the fixing of matches in the domestic league? :confused: Hey, Italy won the World Cup, let's suspend the rule of law, financial accountability and remove corruption, bribery, solicitation, and blackmail from statute. :rolleyes:

There has been no proof, only accusation and heresay. Lets throw in words like bribery, solicitation to make it sound worse shall we ;).

Moggi's telephone conversation to my knowledge has never been fully aired - only select transcripts have been printed, which may be out of context.

What debate? You throw random responses that it no way correlate to the issues at hand. Read back your own previous post and explain how your responses tally with the points made.

Same point to you - your first post started out as a bashing of the Italian league - not as a geniune response to my reason for amnesty. They deserve it because the players deserve it - they are truely champions and their position in the league is reflected accurately.


for a while i thought Inter were just not good enough...


Lets throw gas on the fire - you weren't :)

[Labfm1]

Juve, Milan, Inter, Fiorentina


please do NOT include inter in your discussion...

we are CLEAN and have nothing to do with ref-selection..

we have only been a victim

[Splatypus]

. They deserve it because the players deserve it - they are truely champions and their position in the league is reflected accurately.

The players are not on trial at the moment, only the clubs. The management of Juve, Milan, Lazio and Fiorentina did not win the WC.

[sdougal]

Applause to King Kenny. I coudn't agree more with the points you made. And you made them bloody well lad.

Zapbrannigan. I realise that Italian Football will be shocked to it's roots if these big clubs are relegated but I would also point to it being a period of total renewal and re-birth.

Italian footy's been suffering for various reasons in the last decade or two and I think the Italian FA should restructure the whole thing. Remember. British footy was at a huge low point in the late 80's and the develpoment of the Premier League and footballs consequent restructuring and repackaging changed it for the better.

Most folks in Liverpool are nostaligic about the old days and the Kop as it was, and the 80's had plenty of ups and downs. Most Reds are, I'm sure, convinced that British football is as good a condition as it could be. Execpt for the diving and cheating maybe.

Italian footy needs to get it's house in order and has done for a long time. If things hadn't been allowed to get to this sorry state then perhaps an amnesty would be a fitting option. It's apparent that Italian Football CANNOT and MUST not paper over the cracks once more.

One question for King Kenny. Are those quotes legit? If so where are they from?

[phat]

Amnesty! Amnesty! Amnesty!

[nobuzz]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2093-2179434,00.html has the quotes that kk provided

call for amnesty all you want, this isn't 1982, hopefully they starighten things out this time.

[DRice]

i agree amnesty for all or at least no relegations

[zapbrannigan]

From Eurosport:

"We won't accept sanctions against teams or supporters when only individuals are at fault," said AC MIlan owner and former Italian premier Silvio Berlusconi on Thursday. The Rossoneri - as well as Lazio, Juventus, and Fiorentina - are under investigation in Italy's match-fixing investigation.

Edit: And in my opinion he's right, even though I don't like the guy.

[Labfm1]

From Eurosport:



Edit: And in my opinion he's right, even though I don't like the guy.

ok...so how about this...

no demotion for those teams but take away Juve's titles....

will you accept that??

[cityblues]

I want to keep this post short and sweet.

We've just seen Italy crowned champions of the world, with a squad composed of mostly of players from Juve, Milan, Fiorentina, Roma, Palermo and Inter. Eight out of the Twenty Two players on the world cup final were from Juventus alone.

How can it be suggested that the clubs behind the Italian national team earned their position Serie A through any means than the merit of these players?

Yes the referee selection in matches may have been flawed or influenced by the top Serie A teams, but this does not equate to match fixing. It just means these clubs were seeking to have a decent referee for a game. In a league where the league chairman is also a VP of Milan (no offence to Milanisti) this is quite frankly as a "crime" mundane.

Now we are about to see the top four teams in Italy, the driving force behind our national victory punished solely for the reason that they are to be made an example of. This will completely f@ck up our national team with our top players scattered throughout europe, sold to the highest bidders. We will become another Argentina / France, with all of our top players playing for foriegn clubs.

Truely Italians are masochists.

Edit: The FIGC should take a leaf out of the FA's books - they are an example to the rest of Europe on know how to look after your own - its to their credit that they deal with matters internally, rather than airing their dirty laundry to the world...



In short, you want amnisty cause you're a Juve fan?

[zapbrannigan]

ok...so how about this...

no demotion for those teams but take away Juve's titles....

will you accept that??

Yeah sure, if these things are proven, then thats fair. I also think that the accused should start on negative points, but in Serie A.

In short, you want amnisty cause you're a Juve fan?
Well, yeah :cool:

[AloneSoul]

never mind then

[Mark the Goalkeeper]

Amnesty! Amnesty! Amnesty!
You read mind, word for word. OMG!

[Labfm1]

mods....close delete this thread...
it is pointless..

juve fans call for amnesty with no real reasons, just want to talk, talk, talk..

nothing will come of this thread...there is the real world, who knows that amnesty should NOT HAPPEN
then, there is juve world....fans, whose judgement is clouded by what? i have no idea...

there is no overlap....sane, regular people will never want amnesty
juve people want amensty...

thats known, so no point in a thread..

[johnno]

From Eurosport:



Edit: And in my opinion he's right, even though I don't like the guy.

and how would the supporters of other teams not involved in cheating feel?

relegation please.

[bricktop]

well, King Kenny said most of what I wanted to say and more, very well made arguments and points, mate :)

but I'm just wondering why people think that because Italy won the World Cup, the clubs should automatically be let off the hook, or prosecuted less harshly? winning the cup doesn't change anything that happened in Serie A, and it certainly shouldn't change the way the situation is handled. if there are teams at fault here, then they should be punished regardless of the World Cup or anything else that is irrelevent to the situation.

[dudek]

Amnesty! Amnesty! Amnesty!

No Mercy! No Mercy! No Mercy !

[chelseafan71]

they should obviously be completely let-off, because everyone will make more money that way. Italian football has been so corrupt and without honour for so long that there isn't any point in trying to do anything about it now - the important thing is that the big clubs continue to generate revenue.
and moggi has resigned so everything is ok now.
let the prosecutor drive away in hs new maserati and everything will be back to normal.

[phat]

they should obviously be completely let-off, because everyone will make more money that way. Italian football has been so corrupt and without honour for so long that there isn't any point in trying to do anything about it now - the important thing is that the big clubs continue to generate revenue.
and moggi has resigned so everything is ok now.
let the prosecutor drive away in hs new maserati and everything will be back to normal.

fine by me... lol just kidding.:D


they don't realize that their club won the league because of ref selection, NOT THEIR OWN ABILITY!

We can beat Inter Merda with our youth team!

[Lonso]

I want to keep this post short and sweet.

We've just seen Italy crowned champions of the world, with a squad composed of mostly of players from Juve, Milan, Fiorentina, Roma, Palermo and Inter. Eight out of the Twenty Two players on the world cup final were from Juventus alone.

How can it be suggested that the clubs behind the Italian national team earned their position Serie A through any means than the merit of these players?

Yes the referee selection in matches may have been flawed or influenced by the top Serie A teams, but this does not equate to match fixing. It just means these clubs were seeking to have a decent referee for a game. In a league where the league chairman is also a VP of Milan (no offence to Milanisti) this is quite frankly as a "crime" mundane.

Now we are about to see the top four teams in Italy, the driving force behind our national victory punished solely for the reason that they are to be made an example of. This will completely f@ck up our national team with our top players scattered throughout europe, sold to the highest bidders. We will become another Argentina / France, with all of our top players playing for foriegn clubs.

Truely Italians are masochists.

Edit: The FIGC should take a leaf out of the FA's books - they are an example to the rest of Europe on know how to look after your own - its to their credit that they deal with matters internally, rather than airing their dirty laundry to the world...

This is exactly the type of attitude which holds Italian football back from a much needed reformation, a cleansing of its justified, corrupt reputation. How on earth, after all the conclusive evidence that has been presented and admitted by the culprits, you can ask for amnesty is beyond comprehension.

Amnesty will not only confirm and vindicate the corrupt reputation (it will be laughable!!!) but signal the defeat of will in trying to be rid of corruption. That would be a sight!

When KingKenny says the Italian League is a joke, he doesn't mean the quality of the players or the football. He's talking about the almost accepted and expected forms of malpractices and corruption which underlies the management of the league (I say almost accepted and expected because if millions of italians shared your sentiments that would clearly be the case). And if you did not understand this basic implication from KK's argument, a proper debate (as you called for) seems like an eternity away from taking place. So I won't bother :rolleyes:

[phat]

This investigation supposedly revealed corruption within La Ligua and EPL regarding transfer regulations between their teams and Italian ones. Once the verdicts and penalties are handed out in Italy the FIGC will hand over the evidence to FIFA and EUFA for further investigations that could lead to scandals in the Spanish and English leagues.

[Mark the Goalkeeper]

This investigation supposedly revealed corruption within La Ligua and EPL regarding transfer regulations between their teams and Italian ones. Once the verdicts and penalties are handed out in Italy the FIGC will hand over the evidence to FIFA and EUFA for further investigations that could lead to scandals in the Spanish and English leagues.
LOL Yeah let's bring everybody down!!! Haha just kidding.

[cityblues]

This investigation supposedly revealed corruption within La Ligua and EPL regarding transfer regulations between their teams and Italian ones. Once the verdicts and penalties are handed out in Italy the FIGC will hand over the evidence to FIFA and EUFA for further investigations that could lead to scandals in the Spanish and English leagues.



Good...that'll get rid of Chelski, and ManUre for us.... :)

[DriveShot]

If you try to cheat or alter matches then you have to be punished. I know hte players didnt do anything but high ranking officials did to give them an edge and they represent their clubs. If nothing happens then whats to stop them from doing it again? They'll just try to be more careful. Despite Italy's wondering performance in the World Cup those guilty clubs need to be punished severely.


Don't worry we'll take care of some of those Juve players over at the Bernabeu. ;)

[King Kenny]

This investigation supposedly revealed corruption within La Ligua and EPL regarding transfer regulations between their teams and Italian ones. Once the verdicts and penalties are handed out in Italy the FIGC will hand over the evidence to FIFA and EUFA for further investigations that could lead to scandals in the Spanish and English leagues.There already is an investigation taking place in England over illegal transfers and the payment of fees that are not permitted within FA rules.

However, paying illicitly to guarantee that you get a player and match fixing to pervert the course of an entire league are slightly different degrees of illegality...kinda like the difference between jaywalking and genocide.

[Tifoso]

There already is an investigation taking place in England over illegal transfers and the payment of fees that are not permitted within FA rules.

However, paying illicitly to guarantee that you get a player and match fixing to pervert the course of an entire league are slightly different degrees of illegality...kinda like the difference between jaywalking and genocide.

But that's not what happened. There is zero evidence that that happened. What happened was Moggi asked for refs that were known to be fair to Juve.

If there was match fixing this year, why did we draw a billion matches (it seemed) at the end, when any 2 wins would have given us lo Scudetto comfortably?

[been_extreme]

What I don't understand is that the majority of Juve fans on here protest their innocence - whether you agree with the term or not, there is some pretty damning evidence of match-fixing with the transcripts with Moggi et al.

Defending this is almost as bad as performing the act in the first place - the clubs will correctly be banned from Europe for (at least) a season, the league will financially suffer, and perhaps the message that cheating (or asking for favourable referees) is wrong.

Considering money is the only commodity that any club cares about I think that the punishments are just and fair. If you were a true football fan you would support this punishment (be you from Rome, Milan, London, Japan!) to clear the game from corruption and let it be a sport. Clubs like Juventus and Milan will rise to the top again - naturally - due to their levels of support and financial strength, but this will certainly send out the right message.


But that's not what happened. There is zero evidence that that happened.
Zero evidence? I think that there would be some pretty hefty legal cases if that was indeed the case.

[phat]

There already is an investigation taking place in England over illegal transfers and the payment of fees that are not permitted within FA rules.

However, paying illicitly to guarantee that you get a player and match fixing to pervert the course of an entire league are slightly different degrees of illegality...kinda like the difference between jaywalking and genocide.


How is guarantying that you get certain "GOOD" players any different then guarantying that you get certain "GOOD" refs? For that mater I think it actually effects the game much more. Meaning it's worst.

[cityblues]

How is guarantying that you get certain "GOOD" players any different then guarantying that you get certain "GOOD" refs? For that mater I think it actually effects the game much more. Meaning it's worst.


Why should Juve get to guareentee "good" (not the word in quotes) refs...huh? Are they better than everyone else that they deserve "good"...or should I say "favorable" refs?

[phat]

Why should Juve get to guareentee "good" (not the word in quotes) refs...huh? Are they better than everyone else that they deserve "good"...or should I say "favorable" refs?

They were not "favorable", they were what was considered the best Italian refs. Moggi and OTHERS wanted a well officiated match that would not be decided by bad calls like so many times happens in football.

[narduch]

They were not "favorable", they were what was considered the best Italian refs. Moggi and OTHERS wanted a well officiated match that would not be decided by bad calls like so many times happens in football.

Thanks for this post, I needed a good laugh.

[cityblues]

They were not "favorable", they were what was considered the best Italian refs. Moggi and OTHERS wanted a well officiated match that would not be decided by bad calls like so many times happens in football.



Even if what you say is true (which it isn't) why does Juve get the "best" Italian refs over other Seria A clubs? Are they more special than other Seria A clubs? Do they deserve special treatment?

[phat]

Even if what you say is true (which it isn't) why does Juve get the "best" Italian refs over other Seria A clubs? Are they more special than other Seria A clubs? Do they deserve special treatment?

They do not deserve special treatment. However, they are relatively speaking the most important team in Italy and one of the best/biggest in Europe and the world. Meaning that no matter what anyone says or thinks their matches are the most important in Italian & European football. (Milan-Inter and other top teams as well)

This is FACT and not Juve's and other clubs fault, but a fruit of their success. However it can be attributed too a consequence of not implementing a salary cap and revenue sharing system. Which plagues the entire sporting world and not just Serie A.

So should they have the best referees calling the matches? The anwser is YES.

[cityblues]

They do not deserve special treatment.

So should they have the best referees calling the matches? The anwser is YES.



This contradicts itself...it doesn't make any sense...you say one thing than you go and say the opposite.

[phat]

This contradicts itself...it doesn't make any sense...you say one thing than you go and say the opposite.


I just don't see it as special treatment.

[cityblues]

I just don't see it as special treatment.



:confused:


You're just looking at it through white and black glasses...I'd do the same if it happened to my club, but you're looking like a fool, to me at least...but I can symothise cause I'd look like the same fool if I had to go through what you are now.

[matt12345]

in order to be fair to all teams in italy, i cant see any justification here or anywhere else for amnesty