View Full Version : i think juve should accept demotion ....
sak020
23-08-2006, 04:42 PM
source (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/soccer/08/23/bc.eu.spt.soc.italy.scandal.ap/index.html)
i think they should accept the demotion and stop acting like cry babies ...
akibo
23-08-2006, 04:50 PM
This in insane, they were caught cheating and now they're complaining about harsh decisions. I mean, They CHEATED FFS!!!:mad: that is the worst thing that anyone could do, well besides intentionally breaking someone's bones in a match, anywhooo, I think that it is a right decision by FIFA - if Juventus are to appeal they'll send the whole Italian soccer to death row - so basically there's just no point for them to appeal:mad:
sak020
23-08-2006, 04:52 PM
im a juve fan, been one since the early 90s and i hate to say this, but i think its better for them to play in serie b and win it without any 'help'
source (http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news;_ylt=A9htfuVPeexE9CUAqw0mw7YF?slug=reu-italyjuventus&prov=reuters&type=lgns)
akibo
23-08-2006, 04:59 PM
I would feel very sorry for all of You Juve fans out there if there is further sanctions, but I honestly think that they've got what they deserved so far.. mati, leoni, sak020 etc etc - I'm sure You would be very disappointed as well if all Italian clubs and the NT would be banned from international games..:o
Vito Corleone
24-08-2006, 09:09 AM
So you are blaming Juve for not playing fair, but think it's ok to give them sanctions worth hundreds of millions without giving them a fair trial in a real court?
kaunglei
24-08-2006, 09:58 AM
i thought a fair trial was for criminal cases, no? fixing games cost bettors' hard-earned money, man. same kinda rules exists in stocks and stuffs, betting is more just unofficial and no hard proof of the loss, but the loss is there. and the fans, they invested in one club and its not nice.
edit: defendents found guilty on trial go to jail too dependingo n the penaly, no?
chauchey
24-08-2006, 10:26 AM
So you are blaming Juve for not playing fair, but think it's ok to give them sanctions worth hundreds of millions without giving them a fair trial in a real court?
i agree they should have a trail in a real court...but dont hold up the season for it. Clear them later, and if they are cleared then bring them back up in to serie b next season regardless of their points total.
Now...they where caught on tape trying to influence matches. So i figure they've got at least a demotion coming. If they loose hundreds of millions...well...thats probably close to what they cost the teams that didnt rightfully win the serie a title(who knows what the standings would have been like), or get into EU Competition. :(
Or...if they do want to stall the start of the season, then make the conditions that unless they are absolved of everything by a criminal court, they disolve the team. Simple...dont waste time. if you're a cheater you're going down. Dont waste our time if you are, and if you're not, then we know you're showing up for the right reasons. :p ok...that might be a bit harsh. ;)
denita
24-08-2006, 01:24 PM
i dont think that juve are appealing for nothing. i mean juve are appealing because they werent the only club in italy that was cheating. there were milan,fiorentina,lazio,reggina.
i dont know why only juve were relegated to serie B with -17 deduction. in july milan were in serie B,then serie A and uefa,now serie A + champions league + POT A in the draw of today`s champions league draw.
in my opinion the italian league is cheated all the way. And i dont agree that they took the last league juve won.
the italian league is all fucked up in a perfect way for milan especially
Mark the Goalkeeper
24-08-2006, 01:42 PM
Even if we do get demoted, there is always a bright side. Think of it this way, with Juventus FC in Serie B, more people will start watching Serie B and it will benefit the entire Italian football!
cityblues
24-08-2006, 02:22 PM
So you are blaming Juve for not playing fair, but think it's ok to give them sanctions worth hundreds of millions without giving them a fair trial in a real court?
They've had 3 trials...and Juve doesn't deserve anything fair after what they've done to football...
and now
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=376927&cc=5739
they risk getting Italian football suspended for their selfishness...IMO they are a disgrace of a football club...
Mark the Goalkeeper
24-08-2006, 06:48 PM
They've had 3 trials...and Juve doesn't deserve anything fair after what they've done to football...
and now
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=376927&cc=5739
they risk getting Italian football suspended for their selfishness...IMO they are a disgrace of a football club...
No, FIFA will be looking into the siutation closely but they will not punish the Italian Federation.
narduch
24-08-2006, 06:51 PM
No, FIFA will be looking into the siutation closely but they will not punish the Italian Federation.
You're wrong here. FIFA doesn't like government interference. The civil courts are an extension of this. Juve's actions will threaten all Italian national teams and clubs from taking part in international competions.
Mark the Goalkeeper
24-08-2006, 07:06 PM
You're wrong here. FIFA doesn't like government interference. The civil courts are an extension of this. Juve's actions will threaten all Italian national teams and clubs from taking part in international competions.
Well we're doing what we have to do until we get re-instated back into Serie A like the rest of the clubs on trial.
narduch
24-08-2006, 07:08 PM
We'll we're doing what we have to do until we get re-instated back into Serie A like the rest of the clubs on trial.
Is getting Juve back in Serie A worth having all Italian teams banned from international competition?
Mark the Goalkeeper
24-08-2006, 07:16 PM
Let's put it this way. Juve will be put back in Serie A and no Italian teams will suffer. They are just trying to blackmail us in order to not take any further legal actions.
narduch
24-08-2006, 07:18 PM
Let's put it this way. Juve will be put back in Serie A and no Italian teams will suffer. They are just trying to blackmail us in order to not take any further legal actions.
How are you so sure of this?
FIFA doesn't like government interference. I don't know how I could stress this point more. Juve is threatening FIFA's status quo. FIFA won't take this lightly.
Mark the Goalkeeper
24-08-2006, 07:21 PM
How are you so sure of this?
FIFA doesn't like government interference. I don't know how I could stress this point more. Juve is threatening FIFA's status quo. FIFA won't take this lightly.
Because the president is French
Mark the Goalkeeper
24-08-2006, 07:24 PM
No seriously though, how is it fair that out of all the accused, only we are stripped off our two titles, demoted to serie b, and deducted points while the others keep their Serie A status with only point deductions? This is the typical italian way, someone is always left to be the scapegoat, and unfortunately, it is Juve.
I don't mind playing in Serie B, but if there is a way to get out of the hole, you do the best you can, no?
narduch
24-08-2006, 07:31 PM
No seriously though, how is it fair that out of all the accused, only we are stripped off our two titles, demoted to serie b, and deducted points while the others keep their Serie A status with only point deductions? This is the typical italian way, someone is always left to be the scapegoat, and unfortunately, it is Juve.
I don't mind playing in Serie B, but if there is a way to get out of the hole, you do the best you can, no?
Juve's punishment was more severe because they were more involved than any other team.
I still think that they are going too far with this latest appeal. What's the point of taking all of Italian football down with you?
Mark the Goalkeeper
24-08-2006, 07:38 PM
Juve's punishment was more severe because they were more involved than any other team.
I still think that they are going too far with this latest appeal. What's the point of taking all of Italian football down with you?
Look, nothing's been done yet. Nothing bad has happened to the Italian football, nor will they will be. We will qualify for the Euro and win it.
No seriously though, how is it fair that out of all the accused, only we are stripped off our two titles, demoted to serie b, and deducted points while the others keep their Serie A status with only point deductions? This is the typical italian way, someone is always left to be the scapegoat, and unfortunately, it is Juve.
This issue isn't black and white, it exists on different degrees of corruption. Juve were found to been most corrupt and are the only club in which evidence as terrible as locking referees up to influence them has been shown. Based on that they merit their harsher penalties. Milan and Lazio have been very minimally involved from everything I've read, why should they have the same punishment as Juve?
These appeals are going too far, I agree with Narduch.
Mark the Goalkeeper
24-08-2006, 07:52 PM
Juventus should at least be reinstated back in Serie A with deducted points. Fine, deduct more points from us than milano or the others, but at least keep us in the serie a. it will be the best for both parties
sirmax858
24-08-2006, 08:13 PM
I don't know if this has been said in the thread but Juve have had the worst punishment. They should definetly be in Serie B and i thought they got off easy but then they really had the punishment handed down, buying Buomsong:D. Haahahahaha
Juventus should at least be reinstated back in Serie A with deducted points. Fine, deduct more points from us than milano or the others, but at least keep us in the serie a. it will be the best for both parties
From a neutral view that would be a big mistake. The Italian FA were expected to come down huge on the cheaters, especially Juve. If they're allowed back in on an appeal, Italian football worldwide would be devalued and thought less of. They've already won their appeal for 13 less points deducted and IMO they're lucky that they even got that.
It's not what's good for both parties, but what's fair for football as a whole. A mere point deduction is nowhere near enough punishment nor a strong enough deterrent from preventing such things from happening again. I know it's sad when it happens to your team, I do sympathize for the Juve fans, but there has to be a strong punishment.
Labfm1
24-08-2006, 08:51 PM
It's not what's good for both parties, but what's fair for football as a whole. A mere point deduction is nowhere near enough punishment nor a strong enough deterrent from preventing such things from happening again.
exactly.....
if their punishment is too lenient, then clubs will continue to do it...
think about it....
it means that if i cheat and get caught, I will remain in serie a and just be docked a few points???
that's not fair...
juventus officials are complaining about the money they have/are going to lose.....2 things:
(1) they should have thought about the repercussions before they did what they did
(2) what about all the money they have made during this episode of match fixing?
why don't they take the previous juve board and moggi to court for destroying the team (monetary, titles, prestige)?? you know why?
because they dont see anything wrong with what they did. they believe it was not "too bad" or "too big a deal"...
this is why i think they should be punished more....they are arrogant and have a blind ignorance to the fact that they deserve punishment for SPOILING the sport and giving italian football a bad name...
kaunglei
24-08-2006, 11:38 PM
they should be demoted to series B plus points deduction. they should be cut in admission fee percentage to hurt more finanacially.
Mark the Goalkeeper
25-08-2006, 01:57 AM
they should be demoted to series B plus points deduction. they should be cut in admission fee percentage to hurt more finanacially.
Why don't you just hang us all?
drachen
25-08-2006, 02:12 AM
Wasn't it only a few months ago the whole Greek FA were suspended by FIFA because they didn't like the way the goverment was so 'involved'. The friendly with England was in doubt and the clubs couldn't participate in Europe. They solved the problem and the suspension was lifted. But the fact still remains, FIFA doesn't tolerate goverments undermining their authority
Is it possible for Juve to be given a stricter punishment?
chauchey
25-08-2006, 02:25 AM
Why don't you just hang us all?
I think they tried, but nobody showed for the 'tieing of the rope' ceremony. :p They where all to busy at the appeals court! :D :rolleyes:
I know it's sad when it happens to your team, I do sympathize for the Juve fans, but there has to be a strong punishment.
I agree with this sentiment.
Butterfly
25-08-2006, 02:31 AM
How are you so sure of this?
FIFA doesn't like government interference. I don't know how I could stress this point more. Juve is threatening FIFA's status quo. FIFA won't take this lightly.
Because the president is French
The president of FIFA is from Switzerland...
Juve have to pay, and if they don't it would be a shame for the credibility of italian's football.
Mark the Goalkeeper
25-08-2006, 04:03 AM
I strongly believe that the Administration aka Moggi should be the ones severely punished and not the team (Juventus FC). But that's just what I think. If the worst happens, at least Serie B will be more entertaining and become more popular. At least there will something to do on Fridays and Saturdays heh?
Simon323says
25-08-2006, 04:35 AM
I strongly believe that the Administration aka Moggi should be the ones severely punished and not the team (Juventus FC). But that's just what I think. If the worst happens, at least Serie B will be more entertaining and become more popular. At least there will something to do on Fridays and Saturdays heh?
Why do all Juve sympathizers insist on inventing a distinction where there is none? Moggi was your chairman! He was not acting independently. He is a part of Juventus FC just as much as Buffon, Cappello, Cannavarro, or anyone.
Furthermore, all precedent, literally all of it, requires the grouping of all elements of a club in making such a decision. You, as a Juventus supporter, should understand and agree with this more than anyone. The Heysel Stadium disaster got Liverpool and every single other English club banned from Europe for half a decade for the actions of the fans. The fans! The players and administration had nothing to do with it! I'm sure you wouldn't want to dishonor the memory of your thirty-nine compatriots by arguing that we should throw out that justice and only hold the starting XI accountable for their actions.
chauchey
25-08-2006, 06:35 AM
I strongly believe that the Administration aka Moggi should be the ones severely punished and not the team (Juventus FC).
I cant agree with you completely on this. While i agree that the Admins should all face criminal charges seperate from the clubs punishment, if the Admins where the only ones charged, then all they would do next time is set up some patsy to be the Admin, and be the secretary instead. They would then not have to worry about the club being demoted, and they could still collect their big bonus', because the club wins and everyone else looses.
The effect these people, and thusly the club Juve itself, in the form of wins, affected not only themselves, but many other teams that lost revenue, titles, and spots in EU. Next time, the ownership, the fans, reporters, and all people that are supporting and around the club, will look more closely as to who is being hired to run their 'lady'. As it should be.
narduch
25-08-2006, 12:07 PM
LOL, now Juve want to sue for damages. :eek:
http://channel4.com/sport/football_italia/aug25e.html
What an embarrassment.
Butterfly
25-08-2006, 12:38 PM
£92m!!! wow :eek:
Shouldn't Juve be the one to give out money for what they did and all the money they earned before?
Labfm1
25-08-2006, 01:05 PM
LOL, now Juve want to sue for damages. :eek:
http://channel4.com/sport/football_italia/aug25e.html
What an embarrassment.
as i said in the earlier posts, juve are so arrogant that they believe that they have been done an injustice!
this is why i wish they get MORE punishments...
they cannot even admit when they're wrong...
Mark the Goalkeeper
25-08-2006, 02:01 PM
as i said in the earlier posts, juve are so arrogant that they believe that they have been done an injustice!
this is why i wish they get MORE punishments...
they cannot even admit when they're wrong...
Arrogant? Oh please. This is an appropriate legal action. It's not like we spilled hot coffee like a retard and sue McDonald's for millions of dollars...
cityblues
25-08-2006, 02:22 PM
Arrogant? Oh please. This is an appropriate legal action. It's not like we spilled hot coffee like a retard and sue McDonald's for millions of dollars...
A more proper analogy would be you robbing a house, falling down the stairs and suing the owners for causing injury...
Arrogant? Oh please. This is an appropriate legal action. It's not like we spilled hot coffee like a retard and sue McDonald's for millions of dollars...
No, it's like they stole millions of dollars, cheated football as a whole and think they deserve compensation for it... :rolleyes:
narduch
25-08-2006, 02:31 PM
Arrogant? Oh please. This is an appropriate legal action. It's not like we spilled hot coffee like a retard and sue McDonald's for millions of dollars...
I'm sorry. Juve are coming across as the biggest sore losers of all time. It's Juve/Moggi's fault that their in this mess. Suing for damages is ludicrous.
Mark the Goalkeeper
25-08-2006, 03:13 PM
I myself am very anxious to see the final result come September. Juventus was in a meeting recently with the rest of the Serie B teams regarding changing the Serie B matches taking place from Fridays to Sundays again. So I don't think we will get back to Serie A through these appeals but I know the club will try their best to overturn the verdict.
Simon323says
25-08-2006, 03:38 PM
I myself am very anxious to see the final result come September. Juventus was in a meeting recently with the rest of the Serie B teams regarding changing the Serie B matches taking place from Fridays to Sundays again. So I don't think we will get back to Serie A through these appeals but I know the club will try their best to overturn the verdict.
...And in doing so irreparably damage Italian club and international football for everyone. I hope you're happy.
kernelofthekernel
25-08-2006, 03:54 PM
Juventus have been found guilty of bribing and talking up referees, how can you be pardoned from the punishment?! This is the WORST you can do in sports , cheating and lieing about it ! Its unreal you would even ALLOW them to have an appeal ! Juve = scum
fshroyer
25-08-2006, 05:49 PM
I think it is unfair that Juventus have a much worse punishment than other clubs that cheated. Maybe I don't know the whole story, but AC Milan cheated and they were a top seed in the draw, does that make sense?? If they want to punish these teams, and they should, it should be equal punishment. And as it stands now, it seems very uneven.
Mark the Goalkeeper
25-08-2006, 05:51 PM
Juventus have been found guilty of bribing and talking up referees, how can you be pardoned from the punishment?! This is the WORST you can do in sports , cheating and lieing about it ! Its unreal you would even ALLOW them to have an appeal ! Juve = scum
First of all, there are no direct evidence that we were bribing referees, monetary or otherwise. Yeah, whoopdidoo...Juventus are cheaters, liars, bribers, scum...cry me a river. Nice list you got there, care to add more?
narduch
25-08-2006, 06:05 PM
I think it is unfair that Juventus have a much worse punishment than other clubs that cheated. Maybe I don't know the whole story, but AC Milan cheated and they were a top seed in the draw, does that make sense?? If they want to punish these teams, and they should, it should be equal punishment. And as it stands now, it seems very uneven.
The problem with equal punishments is that not all teams had equal involvement. Juve were doing the worst actions, and they got the worst punishment.
fshroyer
25-08-2006, 06:24 PM
The problem with equal punishments is that not all teams had equal involvement. Juve were doing the worst actions, and they got the worst punishment.Just out of curiosity, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but in what way did Milan cheat that they only get a few points docked, and still #1 seed in CL?? Did they bribe referees?
narduch
25-08-2006, 06:30 PM
Just out of curiosity, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but in what way did Milan cheat that they only get a few points docked, and still #1 seed in CL?? Did they bribe referees?
You have to remember that this wasn't 'match fixing' in the classic sense. There were no bags of money changing hands. There were no bribes. The system essentially involved Juve/Moggi exerting their influence to get the referees to do what they wanted. Please also be reminded that Juve's punishment was the harshest ever for 'match fixing'. Marseille wasn't even relegated when they got caught match fixing in the early 90's.
As per Milan, they aren't involved they way Juve were. Milan got in troubled for complaining to the ref designators after some bad calls. Their only real crime was talking to people they shouldn't have talked to.
Juve/Moggi were running a referee syndicate. The other 3 clubs were only reacting to Juve's system. This is why Juve received the worst punishment.
Mark the Goalkeeper
25-08-2006, 06:52 PM
...in other words, Juve were the only ones raped in the @$$
Butterfly
25-08-2006, 07:17 PM
Marseille wasn't even relegated when they got caught match fixing in the early 90's.
What Marseille's Chairman did was so stupid, but let me explain :
Marseille payed (around 100000 euros) one player of Valencienne during the match Valencienne-OM in 1993. The player was Jacques Glassman. And for that Marseille's title of 1993 was stripped.
So in comparaison, if Marseille would have done the same stuffs Juve did, Marseille would have been desintegrated of french football...
However, Marseille were then relegated in 2nd division because of a big deficit due to this stupid story...
...in other words, Juve were the only ones raped in the @$$
And they're lucky they weren't impregnated and left crying in the bathroom of a crackhouse.
Since you seem to like imagery so much.
sak020
25-08-2006, 07:54 PM
i wonder why none of the referees came forward when they were being 'locked in bathrooms' by moggi/juve ...
narduch
25-08-2006, 07:58 PM
i wonder why none of the referees came forward when they were being 'locked in bathrooms' by moggi/juve ...
Because Juve/Moggi were like the football mafia.
djcash50
25-08-2006, 09:23 PM
The evidence i was reading off the italian news website (www.gazzetta.it) says that Lazio, Fiorentina, and Milan were also involved in picking referees. Of course, you have did that more, but cheating is cheating. I don't understand why all three shouldn't be penalized harshly. Throw Juve to C1 if that meant the other three got sent to B.
BTW, I hate to bring in INter milan into the picture, but Guido Rossi the justice presiding over this case is a former consult for INter. Conflict of interest? Sure, then I also remember how Recoba's passports were falsified, so he could play in the Serie A....
Mark the Goalkeeper
25-08-2006, 11:04 PM
i wonder why none of the referees came forward when they were being 'locked in bathrooms' by moggi/juve ...
Because they were not bribed. They did nothing wrong.
Butterfly
26-08-2006, 12:18 AM
http://ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/english/med/7ba7b6272c1b741cc3d887b2130c5f1f.jpg
ANSA.it : Juventus set for court date: (http://ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2006-08-25_1257891.html)
" Juve is demanding to be reinstated to Serie A and given back the 2006 title because the alleged misconduct took place in the 2004-05 season ."
Even Juve admit that they are guilty...! And now they would like to get £92m or to be reinstalled in Serie A... :rolleyes:
Simon323says
26-08-2006, 12:19 AM
Because they were not bribed. They did nothing wrong.
This is a stretch of logic to the point of comedy. I laughed.
http://ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/english/med/7ba7b6272c1b741cc3d887b2130c5f1f.jpg
ANSA.it : Juventus set for court date: (http://ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2006-08-25_1257891.html)
" Juve is demanding to be reinstated to Serie A and given back the 2006 title because the alleged misconduct took place in the 2004-05 season ."
What's the logic in that argument? It was the same people in charge last season and they were eventually caught. Just because a year passed until the corruption was uncovered (I also highly doubt the corruption didn't occur last season....) they expect the charges to be dropped? :confused:
They're really grasping at straws now. GIVE UP!
-Dan
Butterfly
26-08-2006, 12:34 AM
Yeah...
Also at first Juventus told that Serie B would "acceptable" cause they feared to get in Serie C... but now that they are in Serie B, they claimed that they should be reinstalled in Serie A and given back the 2006 Scudetto... :confused:
They're simply hurting their image even more (an amazing achievment considering their crimes) with this hopeless and arrogant (agreed, labfm!) pleading.
-Dan
Butterfly
26-08-2006, 12:41 AM
Just hope Italian's Federation will not be suspended by FIFA cause the 6th of September there is France-Italy, and I would like to kick italian's asses for the WC2006 :D
Mark the Goalkeeper
26-08-2006, 01:23 AM
Just hope Italian's Federation will not be suspended by FIFA cause the 6th of September there is France-Italy, and I would like to kick italian's asses for the WC2006 :D
keep dreaming mon petit
sak020
26-08-2006, 01:47 AM
Just hope Italian's Federation will not be suspended by FIFA cause the 6th of September there is France-Italy, and I would like to kick italian's asses for the WC2006 :D
y kick the italians' ass ? y not 'head butt' them in the chest ? :D
check this out moggi (http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/aug25o.html)
Butterfly
26-08-2006, 02:03 AM
y not 'head butt' them in the chest ? :D
It depends if Materrazzi plays or not :D
I think this match will be hard for some players from Italy who will start competition in Serie A the 9th of September... The same for Trezegol & Viera.
Labfm1
26-08-2006, 02:24 AM
BTW, I hate to bring in INter milan into the picture, but Guido Rossi the justice presiding over this case is a former consult for INter. Conflict of interest? Sure, then I also remember how Recoba's passports were falsified, so he could play in the Serie A....
typical juve fan...
always trying to drag inter down even when this has nothing to do with inter and inter has done nothing wrong..
lol
please dont lie and say "i hate to bring in inter milan"...
we all know that you really love to ;)
I used to hate Inter FAR more than Juve, mainly due to the CL semi incident two years ago, but Labfm, take comfort that Juve now occupies that prestigious spot of most detested club... ;)
sak020
26-08-2006, 04:19 AM
hate is a very strong word ....
It is, and it's reserved for very few cases.
sak020
26-08-2006, 11:42 AM
zambro: juve betrayed me (http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/aug26b.html)
narduch
28-08-2006, 01:33 PM
It sounds like the FIGC might pussy out and drop Juve's points deduction:
http://channel4.com/sport/football_italia/aug27m.html
What a horrible turn of events if true.
plural
29-08-2006, 07:23 AM
It sounds like the FIGC might pussy out and drop Juve's points deduction:
http://channel4.com/sport/football_italia/aug27m.html
What a horrible turn of events if true.
the truth just hurts for some ppl...
no_frills_billy
29-08-2006, 11:39 AM
Yeah juve should just take it like a man, like prisoners when they get sent to jail
funkdoctorspock
29-08-2006, 06:59 PM
Yeah juve should just take it like a man, like prisoners when they get sent to jail
they already have the uniforms to play the part... :D
seriously though, I was reading that if they lose this appeal, FIFA or the courts can bring down Italian football... revoke Italy as WC winners, reverse the judgements with Milan... lemme see if I can dig up the article... how true is this?
Vito Corleone
29-08-2006, 08:14 PM
I was reading that if they lose this appeal, FIFA or the courts can bring down Italian football... revoke Italy as WC winners, reverse the judgements with Milan... lemme see if I can dig up the article... how true is this?
That's BS.
funkdoctorspock
29-08-2006, 09:34 PM
That's BS.
here's the first article... this is about adding addtional punishment to Juve...
http://home.skysports.com/list.aspx?hlid=411730&CPID=21&CLID=&lid=&title=FIGC+threat+to+Juve&channel=
here's an article (not as detailed as the original one I read... still looking) about Fifa threatening to suspend Italy and Italian clubs from international play...
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/article.jsp?content=20060824_132458_1524
so, what additional sanctions are the courts and fifa likely to impose when Juve fail with this appeal?
narduch
29-08-2006, 09:38 PM
here's the first article... this is about adding addtional punishment to Juve...
http://home.skysports.com/list.aspx?hlid=411730&CPID=21&CLID=&lid=&title=FIGC+threat+to+Juve&channel=
here's an article (not as detailed as the original one I read... still looking) about Fifa threatening to suspend Italy and Italian clubs from international play...
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/article.jsp?content=20060824_132458_1524
so, what additional sanctions are the courts and fifa likely to impose when Juve fail with this appeal?
The most FIFA will do is ban Italian clubs/national teams from international competitions. Just like they did with Greece earlier this summer.
They won't be stripping Italy of the WC title. I wouldn't get my hopes up on that one if I were you.
funkdoctorspock
29-08-2006, 10:13 PM
The most FIFA will do is ban Italian clubs/national teams from international competitions. Just like they did with Greece earlier this summer.
They won't be stripping Italy of the WC title. I wouldn't get my hopes up on that one if I were you.
I wasn't... I thought it was something I read in an article...
how long was that suspension for Greece though? they still were able to play England in a friendly, and I see them drawn in groups for CL and Uefa cup...
I don't expect anything favourable for football rules and regulations... how Milan is playing in Champs is beyond me...
narduch
30-08-2006, 01:13 AM
I wasn't... I thought it was something I read in an article...
how long was that suspension for Greece though? they still were able to play England in a friendly, and I see them drawn in groups for CL and Uefa cup...
I don't expect anything favourable for football rules and regulations... how Milan is playing in Champs is beyond me...
The Greek ban was quick, like 7-10 days. No teams were affected as far as I can tell. But it did its job. The Greek government capitulated, and FIFA and the Greek FA got their way.
plural
30-08-2006, 08:27 AM
The Times August 28, 2006
Is football still above the law?
By Gabriele Marcotti
The decision by Juventus to sue the Italian FA in the civil courts may change the governance game for good
WHAT DOES A FOOTBALL CLUB DO? What is its raison d’être? Is it to play matches in leagues and cup competitions, or is it to provide entertainment, attract sponsorship and offer jobs, in other words to exist as a legitimate business? It is not only a philosophical question. It is a fundamental issue that needs to be resolved before football’s authorities and the law are on a collision course again, just as they were over the Bosman ruling ten years ago.
Football is governed by football law, which is administered by national football associations, who, in turn, must answer to Fifa. Businesses, like individuals, are governed by civil law, which is administered by the courts, who, on some issues, must answer to the European Court of Justice.
*
What happens when the two mix? Who has the upper hand? Fifa is clear on this. Only the FAs can determine footballing matters and they must do so in an independent manner, free from outside interference, whether political or legal. That is why, on July 3, Fifa suspended the Greek FA’s membership of world football’s governing body after the Greek Government refused to pass a law that guaranteed that all football matters could be decided only by the Greek FA.
Few took notice at the time — there was the small matter of the World Cup, after all — but it was a hefty punishment. Fifa barred Greece and Greek teams from competing in all international competitions and banned Greek clubs from buying players from abroad. It was the football equivalent of Death Row and, nine days later, after a rapid climbdown by the Greek Government, Fifa lifted the suspension.
Fifa’s argument is that it is a voluntary association of member FAs, just as the member FAs are a voluntary association of member clubs. No one is forced to join, but if an association wants to stay in, it has to abide by the rules. And rule No 1 is effectively: whatever happens in the family stays in the family. There is no law except for football law.
This kind of set-up might have worked well when football clubs were just that: clubs. Everyone was an amateur and winning came second to having a good time while chasing a ball up and down the pitch. Now, given recent events in Italy, it is proving to be severely outdated.
Juventus, who were caught up in Italy’s latest match-fixing scandal, are unhappy with the Italian FA’s punishment. They have been stripped of two titles, relegated to Serie B and were forced to start the 2006-07 season with minus 17 points. Having exhausted all possible levels of sporting appeals, last week they took their case to the civil courts, reportedly asking them to overturn the domestic FA ’s sentence, while seeking damages of about £88 million.
Apart from the fact that, if Juventus were awarded such a large sum in damages, it would probably bankrupt the Italian FA, the domestic governing body would end up between a rock and a hard place if the civil courts upheld the Turin club’s appeal.
If it recognises the court’s authority and abides by its verdict, its membership of Fifa would be suspended or even revoked (as a stern letter from Zurich intimated). But, if it does not follow the verdict, it would be held in contempt of court and be breaking the law.
And the disturbing and unpleasant truth is that Juventus have a mighty strong case. On the one hand, the evidence that they attempted to influence referees is overwhelming. Phone transcripts revealed that Luciano Moggi, the club’s general manager, made hundreds of calls to various FA officials, lobbying hard for favours, including the appointment of certain referees. From a sporting perspective, there is little question that this is a serious ethical breach, violating the most basic principles of sportsmanship and fair play. The problem is that, from the perspective of civil law, you can make a persuasive argument that what Juventus did is not a crime and therefore the punishment meted out by the Italian FA is excessive. There is no evidence of money changing hands, no evidence of quid pro quo favours, no hard evidence that anyone acted upon Moggi’s requests.
“What we were doing was lobbying for support, nothing more, nothing less,” Moggi said last week. In fact, Juventus argue, that is exactly what they were doing: lobbying. In many Western democracies (including the United States), big corporations pay lobbyists millions to cajole and persuade politicians into passing legislation that favours their interests. In some cases, those same lobbyists can legally pay large sums to fund a politician’s re-election campaign.
Juventus stopped short of that. They did not pay anybody off. They simply lobbied high- ranking FA officials — football’s equivalent of government Ministers — so that they would keep an eye out for their interests. Is that so different from what other big corporations do? And that is what Juventus are. They are listed on the Italian Stock Exchange, have an annual turnover in the hundreds of millions of pounds and employ several hundred people. They are, to all intents and purposes, a business. At least when it comes to this court case.
In short, what they did may have been wrong in the sporting world, but in the corporate world it was just business as usual. That is the crux of the issue.
Fifa’s structure and regulations are made for recreational clubs, not businesses. Its whole premise — an international body that cannot be sued, does not recognise the authority of the courts or of elected officials and that punishes those member FAs that do — is at odds with what football has become.
Juventus may or may not be the test case that brings it all crashing down, but sooner or later something has to give.
Butterfly
30-08-2006, 02:35 PM
First of all, Gabriele Marcotti is not known to be a lawyer neither a judge, so he makes me laugh to read his opinion about the innoncence of Juve before any trial...
Also, when I look carefully how justice is working, I thank god that the laws of FIFA aren't like civil ones!
Finally, if Juve wants to be judged according civil laws, which is FORBIDDEN by FIFA, maybe Juventus should create a new Federation where it would be ok to do all they did.
Labfm1
30-08-2006, 02:50 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
typical juve fan (i'm sure that article was written by a juve fan) trying to defend his club..
i do not think anybody except juve fans want this sentence to be reduced...
juve only care about themselves and thus have not thought about the true ramifications of their appeal...
if they are successful, italian (and to some extent) and world football will lose all integrity. It means that the teams with the most money and power can behave like the mob, appoint referees for games to ensure their victory, knowing that the consequences of those actions are nothing...you won't get demoted, you won't lose any titles, nothing....as a matter of fact, you will be awarded money for trying to cheat! why wouldn't a team try to cheat then??
juve needs to understand that this punishment is not only for their horrible actions, but also as a warning for potential cheaters....juve want to complain about equal sentences for all the teams when clearly the evidence against juve is about 400 times that of what they have for the other teams....if you were a judge, would you give a petty thief and a serial killer the same sentence??? ummmmm....i didnt think so...in fact, you know that while a thief petty thief might get couple years or community service, a serial killer is definitely getting a mininmum of life without parole or possibly the death sentence....
i hope, for football's sake, that either juve accept their punishments or when they go to court, they get handed a worse sentence...
the guy who wrote the article above clearly is not that smart. As i said in another thread, match fixing is a very strange thing where "direct evidence" is NEVER possible (unless confessions)....money changing hands may help but is not the only evidence....i'm sure that when you hear a conversation about Moggi "locking refs in the locker room for giving a pk call against juve" i think that is evidence that shit is just NOT RIGHT! People who write these articles and juventini have not really read the transcripts....calls where moggi is making sure that the refs stay in the nicest hotels, maserati's for people and stuff like that is pretty compelling evidence...
juve are not going to civil courts because they think they have a good case...they're doing it to try to force the FIGC's hand, which thankfully, have not budged...meaning that they're doing their job....come on..think about it...this is juve's 3rd or 4th appeal....they have already appealed and got rejected...the lawyers knew about FIFA regulations, so they try to force the FIGC's hand because the FIGC doesn't want to be banned from fifa...
pretty selfish on juve's part IMO....they rather put the entire italian football in jeopardy than face the consequences of their illegal and unethical actions...
i mean, if juve had such "a strong defense" as implied by the article above, then their penalties would have been reduced significantly after THREE APPEALS ALREADY...
but only time will tell....
pretty selfish on juve's part IMO....they rather put the entire italian football in jeopardy than face the consequences of their illegal and unethical actions...
Does that even surprise you anymore? It certainly doesn't surprise me considering the way they've handled this whole fiasco. Never take responsibilty for your actions, whine, and rely on cheap legal tricks seems to be their motto.
narduch
31-08-2006, 01:29 PM
It looks like Juve are backing off their legal threats:
http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/aug31b.html
The shit thing is that their penalty my be reduced.
deviant
31-08-2006, 01:36 PM
Does that even surprise you anymore? It certainly doesn't surprise me considering the way they've handled this whole fiasco. Never take responsibilty for your actions, whine, and rely on cheap legal tricks seems to be their motto.
What a hypocritical statement hellllooooooooo AC MILANO you were caught too what was the first thing they did CRY APPEAL :confused: dont act so god damn innocent either :eek:
moymatt
01-09-2006, 02:24 AM
What a hypocritical statement hellllooooooooo AC MILANO you were caught too what was the first thing they did CRY APPEAL :confused: dont act so god damn innocent either :eek:
do you know the details of AC Milan's involvement? It was nothing compared to Juve's and for them to get relegated because of it, is sort of bullshit.
deviant
01-09-2006, 02:44 AM
do you know the details of AC Milan's involvement? It was nothing compared to Juve's and for them to get relegated because of it, is sort of bullshit.
It might not have been as much as Juve's but they are still guilty regardless sugar coating nor throwing the blame at Juve isnt going to make what AC did right.
djcash50
01-09-2006, 08:07 AM
If the Milan fan doesn't think their crime was that severe, you should remind him that this CRIME cost them the scudetto that got taken from Juve and handed to Inter.
BTW, (SPOILER)
juve beat inter again (I keep laughing everytime I think of that.)
What a hypocritical statement hellllooooooooo AC MILANO you were caught too what was the first thing they did CRY APPEAL :confused: dont act so god damn innocent either :eek:
Give me a break, the evidence against Milan has been extremely weak, just as with Lazio. The amount of bullshit Juve have tried (and failed at) is unbelievable considering how much more involved they were. They were still involved though and that's embarrassing, but they deserve nowhere near the punishment that Juve received, not even remotely close. IMO the slightest of crimes does warrant having a title being stripped, which is why neither Juve nor Milan deserved it. It was given to Inter, but that's not really what they wanted either. Oh well..
Don't bother comparing Milan's involve to Juve again, the gulf is ridiculous. Oh great, now a Juve fan complaining about Milan, what a surprise.. Enjoy Serie B football :)
deviant
01-09-2006, 11:40 AM
Give me a break, the evidence against Milan has been extremely weak, just as with Lazio. The amount of bullshit Juve have tried (and failed at) is unbelievable considering how much more involved they were. They were still involved though and that's embarrassing, but they deserve nowhere near the punishment that Juve received, not even remotely close. IMO the slightest of crimes does warrant having a title being stripped, which is why neither Juve nor Milan deserved it. It was given to Inter, but that's not really what they wanted either. Oh well..
Don't bother comparing Milan's involve to Juve again, the gulf is ridiculous. Oh great, now a Juve fan complaining about Milan, what a surprise.. Enjoy Serie B football :)
Then shut your mouth Im pretty sure all the Juve fans are sick of Milan fans throwing all the blame Juve's way sure they got what they deserved but you were found guilty boy enjoy being Inter's bitch lol :eek: never thought there would be a time where AC would be Inter's puppet :D
Then shut your mouth Im pretty sure all the Juve fans are sick of Milan fans throwing all the blame Juve's way sure they got what they deserved but you were found guilty boy enjoy being Inter's bitch lol :eek: never thought there would be a time where AC would be Inter's puppet :D
:rolleyes:
What a highly educated reply, when did I ever say Milan were not guilty of crimes, albeit much less severe ones than Juve?
We'll see what happens at the end of the season. I could care less how sick Juve's fans are, their club and management is an embarrassment, that's reason enough to be sick.
moymatt
01-09-2006, 06:11 PM
It might not have been as much as Juve's but they are still guilty regardless sugar coating nor throwing the blame at Juve isnt going to make what AC did right.
the club's liason(clearly a high ranking official) to the refereeing requesting a different linesman after what they believed to be a poor job officiating is not the same as a club's general manager locking refs in the lockerroom after a loss and everything else Moggi pulled. And as much as Gallini looks like a fucking sith lord, he got a 1 year ban with no evidence of his involvement as opposed to Moggi. Moggi is caught completely red handed a number of times doing some pretty jacked up shit and gets 5.
Mr_Jinx
02-09-2006, 02:43 AM
Juve will play in serie b. i've accepted this now and am quite pleased this new era is taking place for the club. Soon enough we will be back in serie a and inter wil be ready to be our bridesmaid again. :P
romuluex
02-09-2006, 12:15 PM
Bottom line the original sanctions should have been maintained and give a fair chance to all the little teams that did suffer from Juve, Milan's match fixing deals. They stole money from other clubs.
romuluex
02-09-2006, 12:18 PM
Don't get me wrong I love the kind of Football Milan plays, but being found guilty of cheating and still allowed to play in the Champions League really doesn't make sense. Someone in the Milan camp must have quite some connections. Starting the season with minus 8, never heard of.
Mark the Goalkeeper
03-09-2006, 07:38 AM
Don't get me wrong I love the kind of Football Milan plays, but being found guilty of cheating and still allowed to play in the Champions League really doesn't make sense. Someone in the Milan camp must have quite some connections. Starting the season with minus 8, never heard of.
Yes it is my friend. The Milanese fans will tell that's because they were less involved than Juventus, again blaming it all on us. The fact is, they were guilty, it doesnt matter to what extent, and yet....they only get a slap on the wrist. But i too have accepted our place in Serie B. We have fallen....but we will rise again
Yes it is my friend. The Milanese fans will tell that's because they were less involved than Juventus, again blaming it all on us. The fact is, they were guilty, it doesnt matter to what extent, and yet....they only get a slap on the wrist. But i too have accepted our place in Serie B. We have fallen....but we will rise again
It doesn't matter to what extent?:eek: You must be kidding, right?When it comes to sentencing how serious is the crime is not taken into consideration?:rolleyes:
The fact is, they were guilty, it doesnt matter to what extent. But i too have accepted our place in Serie B. We have fallen....but we will rise again
You go from a completely flawed legal statement to accepting the situation gracefully, all within the same paragraph. Please make up your mind!
juventino
05-09-2006, 03:17 PM
You go from a completely flawed legal statement to accepting the situation gracefully, all within the same paragraph. Please make up your mind!
It's something that most Juve fans have gone through, first everyone was in denial about being more guilty than Milan or whoever else involved, and now everyone has finally accepted that Juve is in B, and it's time to move on...maybe the punishment was harsh, but Milan fans will believe certain things, as will the Inter fans and so will we, the Juve fans... Have fun in Serie A guys, see you next year ;)
Why can't all juve fans be like you. You sound very familiar there juventino.... ;)
Mark the Goalkeeper
06-09-2006, 07:35 AM
doug, you have to update ur avatar. we have 4 stars now on our badge.
Do you have a link to a similarly-sized pic, but with 4 stars?
Thanks.
Butterfly
06-09-2006, 03:35 PM
I've just added a star :
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/6122/avatar3223421lr5.gif
May the best win tonight ;)
Mark the Goalkeeper
06-09-2006, 08:33 PM
yes butterfly, may the best team win tonight!
Mark the Goalkeeper
06-09-2006, 08:35 PM
here you go doug. our officially badge. enjoy!
http://static.flickr.com/94/229277026_30d2f60cf5.jpg
*you might want to photoshop it to fit in your avatar
shyne
17-09-2006, 12:29 AM
(sorry to ressurect this, but I cant believe what im reading here)
Moggi was guilty of making request for referee's, as well as knowing which ref Juve would have b4 hand. Of the 100,000 phone calls that were tapped, there was no evidence of Moggi telling anyone to make decisions in Juve's favour. To say "Juve are cheaters", etc is connecting 2 dots which the corrupt courts couldn't even link if they tried. Milan, Lazio, Fiorentina were all guilty of the exact same offence, but have got off extremely easily.
Im not saying Juve are innocent, merely pointing out what they're actually guilty of.
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