Is there a good ref in the EPL?

[bluebottledc]

Ever since Poll got sent home from the World Cup, its unclear to me who is the heir apparent to be the next Ref-Boy-Wonder. Ever noticed that once a ref is ordained England's Ref-Boy-Wonder the commentators can see no wrong.

Here's the latest EPL NITWIT (Notches-In-The-Whistling-Idiots-Table)


NITWIT (in alphabetic order)

Martin Atkinson 3 games 8 yellow cards 0 red card
Steve Bennett 4 18 3
Mark Clattenburg 4 20 0
Mike Dean 4 14 2
Phil Dowd 4 7 0
Chris Foy 5 7 0
Dermot Gallagher 1 3 0
Mark Halsey 4 12 1
Andre Marriner 3 9 0
Lee Mason 1 3 1
Graham Poll 6 22 0
Uriah Rennie 4 19 0
Mike Riley 4 14 1
Rob Styles 4 20 1
Peter Walton 5 10 0
Howard Webb 6 25 2
Alan Wiley 6 20 2

Obviously as proven by Mr Poll quantity of cards issued is no guarantee for success...although Mr Gallagher might disagree as he sits on the sidelines.

BTW, I wish there was a table for Ref's assistants showing offsides called/offsides correct per TV commentator! :rolleyes:

So who do you think is the best active EPL ref and why?

[randy420]

I'm a big fan of Mark Halsey and Mike Riley..

[bluebottledc]

Randy wrote:
I'm a big fan of Mark Halsey and Mike Riley
Randy...why Halsey? Presumably Riley cos he fell for Rooney's dive v Goooners?

BTW as an afterthough to my comment about a table for Ref's Assistant offside calling...as all EPL matches are now televised and analyzed , I'd like to see another column in the Notches-In-The-Whistling-Idiots-Table showing "ERRORS"

Publishing ERRORS is not a new concept for sport. Major League Baseball has for years indicated Player Errors in its published box scores. The initial designation of an error is made in-stadium by the baseball scoreboard operator ...and is subject to post-game review within 24 hours by a panel using video...(similar to The Dubious Goals Panel.)

ERRORS/Games would useful feedback for the NITWIT of the Year award run by the Massive Evening News

[dimz]

I still think Graham Poll is the most consistent.

[Supa]

How much do EPL refs get payed? Do most of them have day jobs as well?

It seems like the whole institution of refereeing in football is still stuck back in the 19th Century. If the FA or FIFA want serious refereeing then they have to put serious resources into making that a reality.

[west501]

I, for one, don't think the EPL is a well officiated league
so no, there are no good refs in the epl

[lions67]

I, for one, don't think the EPL is a well officiated league
so no, there are no good refs in the epl

i have an idea for that. why cant uefa send say epl refs to do games in say la liga. have the spanish refs do the bundeslige, german refs do the spl....know what i mean?...i think it would greatly reduce bias.
just my 2 cents for whatever it is worth.
any thoughts?

[randy420]

Randy...why Halsey? Presumably Riley cos he fell for Rooney's dive v Goooners?

I'm a big fan of Riley because he always seems to favor us, which is nice. Halsey I think lets the players play and doesn't brandish needless cards like Styles or Bennett does.

[west501]

i have an idea for that. why cant uefa send say epl refs to do games in say la liga. have the spanish refs do the bundeslige, german refs do the spl....know what i mean?...i think it would greatly reduce bias.
just my 2 cents for whatever it is worth.
any thoughts?

well some of them do get experience in the champions league, but I think the epl's problem is endemic in that the refs may act international outside of the league, albeit with sometimes disastrous results (ie the three yellows that confused poll since he wouldn't have given a caution out for any of those fouls in england), but commit the same sins domestically the next weekend
the way I see it the english game is too rough and the refs promote the drab long-ball style by not calling fouls on players caught in possession
it's as if they favour a game without 'roce' (pronounced roe-say) which is spanish for 'clash' or 'encounter'
in this ideally whistle-free fast paced but ultimately low-skill game, some of the fouls would easily merit a caution in any other league in the world
that's why english defenders have so much trouble abroad and in international games against continental and south american players with excellent skills on the ball
lauded defenders like terry, sol, and rio are much too clumsy to be considered world class outside of england and I think the refs are part of this problem
if english refs adhered more to the rules it would force players to improve their skills and bring the level of the league up considerably

[cityblues]

I'm a big fan of Mark Halsey and Mike Riley..



Mike Riley is more valuable to the rags nowaday than SAF was in the mid 90s ::mad: :)

[kuuze]

Graham Poll and Rob Styles

[dentiss]

all refs make mistake... none of them stand out for me .. what do u lot think of Uriah Reddy ?

[randy420]

all refs make mistake... none of them stand out for me .. what do u lot think of Uriah Reddy ?
Uriah Rennie is a fucking joke of an official

[bluebottledc]

all refs make mistake... none of them stand out for me .. what do u lot think of Uriah Reddy ?
I love him when he's refereeing Chelsea...but he scares the crap out of me when we have to trust him to protect Reds.


And on a more serious note Guest501's post made me do some serious reflection on the English game


but I think the epl's problem is endemic in that the refs may act international outside of the league, albeit with sometimes disastrous results (ie the three yellows that confused poll since he wouldn't have given a caution out for any of those fouls in england), but commit the same sins domestically the next weekend
the way I see it the english game is too rough and the refs promote the drab long-ball style by not calling fouls on players caught in possession
it's as if they favour a game without 'roce' (pronounced roe-say) which is spanish for 'clash' or 'encounter'
in this ideally whistle-free fast paced but ultimately low-skill game, some of the fouls would easily merit a caution in any other league in the world
that's why english defenders have so much trouble abroad and in international games against continental and south american players with excellent skills on the ball
lauded defenders like terry, sol, and rio are much too clumsy to be considered world class outside of england and I think the refs are part of this problem
if english refs adhered more to the rules it would force players to improve their skills and bring the level of the league up considerably

His argument made sense until i spotted a potentially huge flaw in his indictment of the English game:

Most of the major EPL teams have very few English players in their starting line-ups eg Arsenal 0 Chelsea 3 etc ...and yet these non-english players do not appear to have the same issues when they play outside of England in the ECL and International Stage.

[theworm2345]

Mike Riley is the worst ref in the EPL and pretty much only makes calls in Man Utd's favor. I usually find the Uriah Rennie keeps the game in control and rarely makes a bad call (excluding that horrible one against Wolves a few seasons back), though I have only seen a handful of matches live (thanks to Setanta just picking live matches up) so most of the calls I have seen him make over the last few years are from highlights, so I could be very wrong

[randy420]

Mike Riley is the worst ref in the EPL and pretty much only makes calls in Man Utd's favor.

You say it like there's something wrong with it :)

[Silas]

Mike Riley is the best in the whole universe :D.

[simongabriel]

And on a more serious note Guest501's post made me do some serious reflection on the English game

His argument made sense until i spotted a potentially huge flaw in his indictment of the English game:

Most of the major EPL teams have very few English players in their starting line-ups eg Arsenal 0 Chelsea 3 etc ...and yet these non-english players do not appear to have the same issues when they play outside of England in the ECL and International Stage.

I believe if you notice that barring Hargreaves who is now hurt, and Beckham who is no longer on the team, not a single England NT player plays outside of the EPL. What he's trying to say is that all of the England NT players play with these refs and this style of officiating, which hurts them internationally. Now, whether or not that's consistent with how any other internationals play that are on EPL squads is an entirely different matter. But I do believe that was his point. :D

Doesn't that seem just a tad odd sometimes, too? Every single player (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am) now plays in the EPL. Seems a touch bad for variety, no? It's no wonder they seem so stale in the international matches... they all play the same style of football. Really makes me wish some of them would consider playing in another league, just to spice things up some.

[bluebottledc]

Simon I think the points you made in both of your paragraphs are valid.

That said...

Your para 1.....my counterpoint to his assertion that English refs are hurting the standard of the England national team remains that many "foreign" superstars have now spent the last several years in the EPL and would therefore be subject to the very same refs. Why haven't these foreign players been impacted by the refs?

Your para 2 ..you're correct re Hargreaves/Beckham and while on the surface there is merit to some of England's NT squad gaining exposure in foreign leagues, I also wonder to what extent that impact's team cohesion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont recall seeing too many of Italy's successful world cup squad playing outside of Italy. I wouldn't be surprised if that was substantially true for prior world cup winners...although admittedly I can only confirm that for one World Cup Winner...England in 66.


GENERAL UPDATE
Found this is the Guardian Aug 2006

Men in the middle: The Premiership's elite referees
Mike Dean
From: Heswall
Age: 38
Years reffing: 21
Years in elite: 6
Last season: M23 Y74 R6
Style
Liberal, let-it-flow type but like a trendy teacher he reacts sternly, more in disappointment than anger, when his goodwill is exhausted.
Controversy watch
Suspended for three months in February 2005 after he set up an online horse racing betting syndicate without permission from his employer. Also withdrawn from officiating last season's FA Cup final after concerns were raised about a Merseyside-based referee officiating a final involving Liverpool. Chelsea were fined £10,000 after their players acted in an "aggressive manner" towards him after William Gallas was sent off at Fulham in March.
Key fact
A devilish season last year. The total number of fouls in his matches last season: 666.
Steve Bennett
From: Orpington
Age: 45
Years reffing: 22
Years in elite: 7
Last season: M30 Y105 R10
Style
Strict and stern disciplinarian like a back-to-basics home secretary with a tabloid editor to humour.
Controversy watch
Awarded West Ham a goal against Middlesbrough in October when Teddy Sheringham's shot did not cross the line, and in January 2005 he gave Bolton a penalty at Blackburn after El Hadji Diouf dived over Brad Friedel and rolled over three times. "It was a diabolical decision," said Mark Hughes.
Key fact
Bennett is the most impatient referee: he produced a card every 6.9 fouls last season, the lowest total for a Premiership official.
Mark Halsey
From: Bolton
Age: 45
Years reffing: 17
Years in elite: 7
Last season: M21 Y37 R5
Style
Understated and low-key, he may later suffer repetitive strain injury from his use of the play-on gesture.
Controversy watch
Chelsea's players surrounded him twice at West Brom in March, first for his dismissal of Arjen Robben, then after Ronnie Wallwork's collision with Claude Makele, earning the club a £10,000 fine. Awarded Fulham a penalty against Arsenal at Craven Cottage in 2004 but later admitted on TV that he changed his mind after witnessing the Arsenal players' reactions. Blackburn's Ryan Nelsen was charged with improper conduct after accusing Halsey of having "a nice track record" of sending off Blackburn players.
Key fact
Halsey keeps himself fit during the season by training with Bolton.
Uriah Rennie
From: Sheffield
Age: 46
Years reffing: 27
Years in elite: 9
Last season: M27 Y63 R2
Style
Muscular Roboref who avoids dialogue with the players and dispenses justice with grim relish.
Controversy watch
Built his reputation in recent seasons but Wolves fans still recall the day in September 2003 when he awarded a penalty to Southampton after Kevin Phillips tripped on the ball in the penalty area with no opposing players near him. The then Wolves manager Dave Jones called him "useless". Jones would find an ally in Kevin Keegan. "I never talk about Uriah Rennie except to say I don't like him as a referee," Keegan once said. "Never have, never will."
Key fact
At 11.7 fouls per card, he was the most patient regular Premiership referee last season.
Graham Poll
From: Tring
Age: 43
Years reffing: 26
Years in elite: 13
Last season: M29 Y92 R5
Style
Staunch friend to the stars who can't help himself upstaging them by mugging to camera.
Controversy watch
The three-card trick during the Australia v Croatia match at the World Cup which mortified him was preceded by his failure in January to award Blackburn a penalty at Old Trafford in the Carling Cup semi-final second leg against Manchester United when Rio Ferdinand handballed. "Mr Poll thought 61,000 people had come to see him," said Mark Hughes.
Key fact
Has shown a red card to eight different players in the 90th minute of matches.
Howard Webb
From: Rotherham
Age: 35
Years reffing: 17
Years in elite: 3
Last season: M30 Y86 R5
Style
Patient and unruffled but with the "I'm in charge, sunshine" bearing of the police sergeant he once was.
Controversy watch
Graeme Souness received a one-game touchline ban and £10,000 fine for a tirade at Webb in November 2004. He said the referee failed to spot a foul in the build-up to one of Fulham's goals in their 4-1 win at Newcastle and did not award what Souness called a "blatant penalty" when Alan Shearer fell in the Fulham penalty area. West Ham's Alan Pardew and Rafael Benítez of Liverpool were also raging after he sent off Hayden Mullins and Luis Garcia in April, ruling them out of the FA Cup final.
Key fact
Webb's first five games as a Premiership referee ended goalless.
Mike Riley
From: Leeds
Age: 41
Years reffing: 26
Years in elite: 10
Last season: M28 Y113 R8
Style
Punctilious parking control attendant with an occasionally twitchy trigger finger.
Controversy watch
Took charge of Manchester United's 2-0 defeat of Arsenal in October 2004 which ended Arsenal's 49-match unbeaten Premiership run. He was criticised for United's penalty and for not sending off Ruud van Nistelrooy nor curbing the Neville brothers' persistent kicking of José Antonio Reyes. "The referee should have stopped the violence," Reyes said.
Key fact
Awarded the highest number of yellow cards (113) and fouls (967) in the Premiership last season.
Alan Wiley
From: Burntwood
Age: 46
Years reffing: 25
Years in elite: 7
Last season: M31 Y97 R5
Style
Lugubrious air masks common-sense approach but has a liking for over-dramatic hand gestures.
Controversy watch
Sent off Liverpool's Pepe Reina last season for brushing Arjen Robben's cheek at Stamford Bridge. But no one could question his sending off of David Prutton in 2005. The Southampton midfielder shoved Wiley and was banned for 10 matches.
Key fact
Wiley is in demand: he officiated 31 matches last season, the highest by a Premiership referee.
Chris Foy
From: St Helens
Age: 43
Years reffing: 23
Years in elite: 6
Last season: M22 Y55 R6
Style
Manages the game well by keeping a low profile and seems genuinely to enjoy his job.
Controversy watch
Birmingham co-owner David Sullivan was peeved when Foy called off his team's home fixture with Middlesbrough just over an hour before kick-off on December 20, 2003 even though both teams' managers were happy to play. Sullivan had made the game free for children and believed the referee was too hasty. "He has ruined Christmas for many of our supporters," said Sullivan.
Key fact
Awarded the highest number of penalties (eight) in the Premiership last season along with Phil Dowd and Mike Riley.
Phil Dowd
From: Stoke-on-Trent
Age: 43
Years reffing: 23
Years in elite: 5
Last season: M23 Y96 R7
Style
Premiership's Billy Bowden with unique array of signals delivered with a masterly look of scorn.
Controversy watch
In April's Wigan v Blackburn game he allowed a Rovers goal despite a push on John Filan. "I didn't think it was a foul, I thought it was GBH," said Paul Jewell. "He's just not very good. A Premiership manager told me he was the worst referee in this league, and he was not wrong."
Key fact
He handed out 4.8 cards per game last season, the highest average in the Premiership.
Rob Styles
From: Waterlooville
Age: 42
Years reffing: 19
Years in elite: 6
Last season: M30 Y91 R6
Style
Jekyll and Hyde. Usually keeps the game flowing but can snap like a croupier on speed to deal the cards.
Controversy watch
Jose Mourinho is not a fan. The Chelsea manager questioned the referee's integrity after last season's draw at Aston Villa. "He has definitely a problem with us. I'm not happy with the referee. He's not a bad referee but with Chelsea he's amazing." Also sent off Manchester City's Sylvain Distin last season when the City captain continued to protest Didier Drogba's second goal, which had been scored with the use of his hand, and refused to give him the ball at half-time.
Key fact
Mourinho could be wrong: Styles sent off three players against Chelsea last season.
Andre Marriner
From: Birmingham
Age: 35
Years reffing: 14
Years in elite: 1
Last season: M7 Y17 R1
Style
Occasionally looked nervous in his debut season but grew in stature by application of the advantage rule.
Controversy watch
"He didn't get just one [decision] wrong, he got three or four wrong," moaned Fulham's manager Chris Coleman after his side's defeat by Wigan in October. Marriner was a stand-in for the more experienced but injured Barry Knight. "My players were going nuts at half-time. Some of the decisions contributed to the result."
Key fact
Marriner was the first referee to officiate at Arsenal's Emirates Stadium.
Martin Atkinson
From: Leeds
Age: 35
Years reffing: 20
Years in elite: 2
Last season: M18 Y48 R1
Style
Unfussy Yorkshireman who imposes his authority without recourse to card-happy showmanship.
Controversy watch
Victim of a Chris Coleman tongue-lashing last season after he failed to spot Ruud van Nistelrooy offside in the build-up to a Manchester United goal against Fulham. "I said something to the officials which probably wasn't very nice but it was such a poor decision," said Coleman after being sent to the stands. "He was in a perfect position to see it and I just do not understand why he got it wrong. If I make a mistake I get criticised, so why shouldn't the officials?"
Key fact
He was an assistant for three seasons from 2000 to 2003.
Peter Walton
From: Long Buckby
Age: 46
Years reffing: 20
Years in elite: 3
Last season: M13 Y41 R1
Style
Letter-of-the-law merchant with bird impressionist Percy Edwards-like whistle-happiness.
Controversy watch
Jacques Santini was warned by the FA in September 2004 for saying Walton was "smiling with the players and staff of Manchester United" at half-time in Spurs' 1-0 defeat. Walton said that he had merely stood next to Sir Alex Ferguson to order his team back on the pitch.
Key fact
Has shown only two red cards during his time in the Premiership - both to goalkeepers.
Mark Clattenburg
From: Whitley Bay
Age: 31
Years reffing: 16
Years in elite: 2
Last season: M16 Y58 R0
Style
Bright young thing who prefers establishing a rapport with players to foraging in his breast pocket.
Controversy watch
Failed to award Spurs a goal in January, 2005 when Pedro Mendes's shot from 50 yards was bundled over the line by Roy Carroll. The match finished 0-0 and Spurs were denied a first Old Trafford victory for 16 years. He also has history with Neil Warnock, sending him off for "waving his arms and gesticulating" after Sheffield United were denied a penalty against Watford in October 2004.
Key fact
Did not send a single player off in his 16 Premiership matches last season.
Barry Knight
From: Kent
Age: 46
Years reffing: 28
Years in elite: 7
Last season: M5 Y15 R1
Style
The "Knightmare", managers' bete noir who tries desperately to keep low profile but too often fails.
Controversy watch
Sent off Sunderland's Andy Welsh last August when he "swung an arm" at Luis Garcia. TV replays later showed he simply ran into the Spaniard as he turned away. Has also been on the end of a Graeme Souness rant that cost the Scot £20,000 and a two-match touchline ban when he dismissed three Newcastle players against Aston Villa in 2005 - including Lee Bowyer and Kieron Dyer for fighting each other.
Key fact
Refereed only five games last season after damaging his knee ligaments.
Dermot Gallagher
From: Banbury
Age: 49
Years reffing: 29
Years in elite: 14
Last season: M20 Y32 R7
Style
Fans' favourite with a veteran's "seen it all" discretion and a refusal to become too obtrusive.
Controversy watch
Relegated to the Football League list in November 2001 after failing to send off Leeds' Robbie Keane for pushing David Beckham in the face after a fierce tackle by the then Manchester United midfielder in the 1-1 draw at Old Trafford. He has since restored his reputation.
Key fact
Gallagher is rapidly becoming a candidate for TV's Grumpy Old Men over the issue of delays at throw-ins. "The referee should be able to say: 'You're the nearest to it - you take it.' It ain't rocket science to take a throw-in.


Interesting that Gallagher already had a reputation for not punishing vicious tackles before the Thatcher incident that effectively cost him his job at least for now...also surprised to see gallagher is still reffing at 49!

[lions67]

again, i ask that you look at my post. i really believe that this is the best way to deal with officiating issues.it has NOTHING to do with gaining eurpoean experience. just to keep things even.

i have an idea for that. why cant uefa send say epl refs to do games in say la liga. have the spanish refs do the bundeslige, german refs do the spl....know what i mean?...i think it would greatly reduce bias.
just my 2 cents for whatever it is worth.
any thoughts?

[bluebottledc]

Agreed lions67 but the challenge is we still dont have professional refs throughout EUFA...and in addition not all so-called professional refs even in the EPL are fulltime refs..(unless you know of recent developments.) Unless refs were fulltime i doubt it would be practical for them to immerse themselves in the foreign league.

Imo we need to spend a hell of a lot more money on addressing the issue of creating an army of properly trained, full time refs, adequately compensated with the right technology; less ambiguous rules and with enough matchday support personel to get the job done throughout all of EUFA's territory so we could experiment with the use of foreign refs.

Today's EPL referees are in a no-win situation...that is until the media suddenly annoint them as the ref-boy-wonder and suddenly everything they do is perfect. And today its far from clear who are the new EPL superstar refs which is why all we hear on MOTD is moaning.

[orange22]

Poll is shit, how can anyone like him? :p I'm serious though!

I like Uriah Rennie, just because he doesn't act like an ass and seems to enjoy reffing.

[DriveShot]

again, i ask that you look at my post. i really believe that this is the best way to deal with officiating issues.it has NOTHING to do with gaining eurpoean experience. just to keep things even.

i have an idea for that. why cant uefa send say epl refs to do games in say la liga. have the spanish refs do the bundeslige, german refs do the spl....know what i mean?...i think it would greatly reduce bias.
just my 2 cents for whatever it is worth.
any thoughts?

Because those refs dont want to live in a foreign country or make the travel every week. Doing a big match for European competition is an honor since its not very often.

[west501]

His argument made sense until i spotted a potentially huge flaw in his indictment of the English game:

Most of the major EPL teams have very few English players in their starting line-ups eg Arsenal 0 Chelsea 3 etc ...and yet these non-english players do not appear to have the same issues when they play outside of England in the ECL and International Stage.

sorry for the delay, mate
didn't realise this thread had kept going :s
you're absolutely right that a large proportion of epl players are indeed foreigners, but just think that they were brought up with international refs and are thus more able to cope with the difference than english based players
my main point is that england is a place, many would argue the only place (that matters), where refereeing is quite different from the rest of the world
there's little denying it's a bubble
as simongabriel said, it would serve them well to have some more players get international experience..but with the high profile failures of owen and beckham it seems they may have been over reaching as adjustment in either direction is difficult
lower profile moves like hargreaves on bayern would serve them well
I'd love to see downing for example go somewhere..he's a young lad with a great left foot and I think he could easily gain some great experience in spain on a midlevel team
lennon too..he'd do better to get a year or two on the continent than the imminent sean wright phillips style high-profile move
these are decisions that need to be made in the interest of the future of english international football
the refs have a stake in this too, of course

edit: defenders too! they have to get a few young defenders out there to do apprenticeships in italy, where they would fit in because it's similarly rough, but also learn how to embarrass an attacker who tries the dribble