PSG fan killed by the french police

[cavenaghi]

PARIS (AFP) - 24/11/2006 00h31 -
Un policier a tué par balle un supporteur du PSG et en a blessé un autre jeudi soir, apparemment en se portant au secours d'un supporteur israélien en marge du match PSG - Hapoël Tel-Aviv qui s'est tenu au Parc des Princes à Paris.
Selon les premiers éléments en possession de la police, un fonctionnaire de police en civil, seul sur les lieux, - et sans brassard "police" selon des témoins - s'est porté au secours d'un supporteur israélien qui avait été agressé par des supporteurs du PSG faisant partie d'un groupe d'environ 150 personnes.
Ce policier a "violemment été pris à partie" par ceux-ci à la hauteur de la porte de Saint-Cloud, dans une rue non loin du Parc, selon la préfecture de police de Paris (PP) interrogée par l'AFP.
Il a alors fait usage d'une bombe lacrymogène afin de se dégager puis a tiré deux coups de feu, selon la PP.
Deux personnes parmi les supporteurs du PSG ont été touchées. L'un, âgé d'environ 20 ans selon des témoins, est décédé, l'autre blessé. On ignorait avec précision la gravité des blessures de celui-ci.
Le policier a ensuite été pourchassé par le groupe de supporteurs puis s'est réfugié dans un restaurant Mac Donald's, toujours selon les premiers éléments de l'enquête.
D'importantes forces de police ont été envoyées sur place, selon la même source, et sont intervenues afin de faire cesser les vifs incidents et les bagarres.
L'inspection générale des services (IGS - "police des polices) a été saisie de l'enquête. Des témoins ont fait état de "confusion" et d'une "extrême tension" lors des faits et l'enquête s'avère difficile "pour cette raison", selon une source policière.

Sur place, des témoins ont globalement confirmé la version policière, ajoutant pour certains d'entre eux que le policier ne portait pas de brassard "police", contrairement à l'usage, et que "personne ne s'est rendu compte qui il était précisément".
"On aurait pu croire à tout : un voyou, un quidam, mais pas à un policier", a affirmé l'un d'eux. "On pensait qu'il avait un pistolet à grenaille", a-t-il ajouté.
Selon ces même témoins, le policier "a longtemps tenu en joue" le groupe de supporteurs avec son arme avant de tirer "trois ou quatre coups de feu" sur ce groupe. "Ca nous a paru durer une éternité", a dit l'un d'eux.
Tous les témoins ont évoqué un "climat de forte tension et d'extrême confusion", certains décrivant une scène "surréaliste".
Un supporteur "au moins" a été interpellé puis menotté, a constaté sur place un journaliste de l'AFP. Des vitres du restaurant Mac Donald's ont volé en éclat, a-t-il également constaté.

Le PSG, qui espérait sans doute se relancer face au très modeste Hapoël Tel-Aviv en Coupe de l'UEFA, s'est fait humilier 4 buts à 2.
L'équipe de football parisienne a toujours eu des difficultés à canaliser ses supporteurs, à l'origine ces dernières années de nombreux incidents, parfois à caractère raciste, et beaucoup sont interdits de stade pour cette raison.
Le 13 novembre, six supporteurs ont ainsi été jugés en comparution immédiate par le tribunal correctionnel du Mans pour avoir agressé un jeune Français de 19 ans d'origine sénégalaise à l'issue du match de Ligue 1 PSG - Le Mans.

For those who don't understand french, a Paris-SG fan was killed and another wounded by the french police after the UEFA Cup game between Paris-SG and Hapoël Tel-Aviv.
A policeman was defending, alone, an israeli supporter attacked by a group of PSG fans. He used his gun three or four times, killing a fan (20 years old) and wounding another. The policeman wasn't wearing anything identifying him as being part of the police. And it seems that many people weren't thinking his gun to be a real one.

There was a lot of tension at the Parc des Princes tonight.
First, because the club is once again in crisis, with the worst first half of season in its history.
Second, many french jews came in the stadium to support the Hapoël, and it's never a good thing cause fans aren't in distinct areas (remember PSG-Galatasaray few years ago when a lot of turkish people came => there were big fights).
Third, PSG is known for having the most violent fans in France and always had a small minority of nazis in the Boulogne stand.
And finaly, once again, PSG lost the game...

I don't remember a fan being killed by the police in France. That's a sad first one but we had it coming. There were a lot of incidents during the last months, especially with PSG fans.
Now the problem is that the police will lose the little respect they still had from the fans. I saw recently some threads about american policemen but, really, France can't teach anything to anyone. Our police, as the rest of the society, is becoming as brutal and dumb as any american police or even worse.
And what is sure is that the next weeks will certainly be very tense.

I don't know the guy who was killed and he may have been the worst asshole, it doesn't change the fact that no one should die for a football match. And no one should give a gun to someone who doesn't know how to react in tense situations.

[cartbran]

ca c'est grave.

It is difficult to understand the situation. Would the PSG fans have killed or caused serious injury to the Tel Aviv fan? I think that is a key circumstance, if the police were saving the dudes life.

The other conclusion is that the officer panicked. Either way, the outcome is sad.

[il2]

It is difficult to understand the situation. Would the PSG fans have killed or caused serious injury to the Tel Aviv fan? I think that is a key circumstance, if the police were saving the dudes life.

The other conclusion is that the officer panicked. Either way, the outcome is sad.

I think it was a little bit a both. I doubt that the fan would have been killed, but that should not stop the policeman from helping him. Seriously injury was probable. The article also mentions that the policier fired some tear gas which implies that the situation was really chaotic. At that point the story understandably gets muddled - where did he shoot from? at what distance? Did he shoot as a reflex for self defense or did he run off some bit and fire at them from a secure distance with intent to kill? Or perhaps were the shots fired to prevent persuit, in which case the tear gas should've done that.

[Butterfly]

Here is the google traduction of this french article (http://www.lexpress.presse.fr/info/quotidien/actu.asp?id=7373) in L'Express. A reporter of the newpaper L'Express was there when the accident occured. Here is his story :

After the match, I went Porte of Saint-Cloud, at 300 meters of the Park of the princes, because the turning of meeting (demolished PSG) and the presence of at least 15.000 supporters of Tel Aviv, French or Israelis, made fear fixings with the most violent fringe of the fans of the PSG.

“Remains behind me, remains behind me!”

At 22h50, whereas I arrive near the subway station Porte of Saint-Cloud, the first incidents burst. A few hundreds of psg fans, for the majority very young people, seek to be caught some, here or there, with unfavourable supporters (rare at this place). The police officers charge and push back them towards the esplanade of the door of Saint-Cloud, a very vast place, surrounded by coffees, restaurants, of a church, a great station of bus and a deposit of the RATP. The match is finished since less than twenty minutes but there is still crowd on the place. Few police officers, on the other hand. A surprising discretion insofar as this sector is traditionally where the Parisian fans hardest (those of the Boulogne platform, considered sensitive to the theses of extreme-right-hand side), gather after the meetings.

Whereas I arrive myself on the place, certain Parisian precipitate towards the station of bus, where they test, it seems, to continue somebody. Then the group in question turns back and starts to threaten, remotely, a going man with sharp pace in the middle of the roadway. I see it: it is a Black of about thirty years, rather large, wearing of a natural-coloured wool sweater. It has in hand a large teargas bomb and tries to face an increasingly hostile crowd. Obviously, it seeks to protect somebody, located close to him, (I will learn thereafter that it was a question undoubtedly one of supporting of Tel Aviv) and launches on several occasions: “Remains behind me! remain behind me!”.

The attackers has a presentiment of the step, insult him. He moves back, panic, tries to leave on the right, loses his bomb lacrymo, collects it, moves back again. And crowd continues to advance, a few tens of young people to the outposts; two to three hundreds with the back. The young Black looks around him, as if it sought of the assistance, but there are still no visible police officers on the place. It is necessary to flee, now, to escape lynching. It runs then in direction of Mac Donald' S, on the other side of the place. On the left of the establishment the immense gate of a deposit of the RATP is. This part of the place is badly lit, and could not constitute a refuge. It is at this time there, little before 23h00, that the drama occurs. I do not assist to with it directly, because I am still about fifty meters higher. But I note a sway in the crowd, as if the “fugitive one” were caught up with by its attackers near the deposit. Several people shout “It has a firearm, it has a firearm”. And then suddenly, a shot opera hat. I precipitate. I do not notice any victim but I note that it found refuge in Mac Donald' S where several customers are sat at table.

“It is a cop!”

Its prosecutors saw it. They take the restaurant by storm, breaking the panes with kicks. Inside, the young man leaves a weapon. It is the first time that I see it. Then a walkie-talkie. Then, only, I understand that it is about a police officer. “It is a cop, it is a cop! ”, the attackers shout, who also seem to discover his quality of police officer. Others continue to howl “Salts negro” or “Blue Red White, France with the French!” A racist hatred multiplied by ten by the rumour which swells very quickly: the shot would have made a “severely wounded person”. Initially, I think that it is about a rumour. The following minutes are of an extreme violence. The police officer, the weapon with the fist, directs his weapon on the attackers, increasingly many, gathered in front of Mac Do. He, of course, is, protected always inside, to some extent, by the panes of the restaurant which yield to one. As the reinforcements delay, it seeks to take refuge on the floor, with the customers. The attackers try to penetrate in the establishment but give up it rather quickly, of fear of being wedged. On the whole, the police force will put good ten minutes to intervene. An eternity. Especially the evening of a meeting of football having mobilized more than 600 men with two steps from there. On the place of the Door of Saint-Cloud, it is always the most total confusion. The supporters are furious; they howl “There is a casualty, it is a bur, there is a casualty”, which pokes the violence of those, racist or not, which did not attend the beginning of the scene. I see the body over there, in front of the door lattérale of the deposit of the RATP. It acts appears it of a very young man. Of the guys of the Boulogne platform try to look after it while passing to him from water on the face. According to them, it was touched with the chest. Completely panicked, they say to have alerted the helps, which do not arrive. Myself, I try to ask of the assistance but the firemen and Samu, them also, will spend several minutes before arriving. This delay can be explained by the ambient tension around Mac Do - the rapid deployment force balance teargases - but it is all the same surprising why one evening of match, at three minutes with feet of a stage under high monitoring, the first-aid organizations put more than ten minutes to act. Important precision: at any time the supporters of the PSG are not caught any to the firemen, making an effort contrary to facilitating their intervention.

It is then 23h12. The firemen move the casualty inside the buildings of the RATP, out of sight of crowd, and try to save it. A few minutes later, I learn his death. It was called Mounir, he had its practices in the Boulogne platform. The police officers of general Information of the prefecture of police force of Paris, specialists in the hooligan question, had appears him located among the “Independent ones”, the most violent fringe of the fans of the club of the capital. In same time, I understand that another to support - old approximately twenty-five years - was wounded by ball (a perforated lung). It is neat with the Three Shells, the close brewery. He also attended seems it the spans of the Boulogne platform. Even if it is seriously reached, its days would not be in danger. There would it thus have had a second shot? For my part, I heard only one of them. Idem, to my knowledge, for the other people present. The investigation will have to say if the same ball made two victims, and at which place those were precisely at the time when they were reached.

At 23h30, the police force takes again the control of the district. They protect Mac Do, where always terrent themselves the author of (or of) the blow (S) of fire and the customers. The police authorities invest the places: the staff of the PJ, the prefect, and finally investigators of the general Inspection of services (IGS, the police force of the police force). The latter inherit the file insofar as a police officer (member of the brigade of the subway and not of a service in charge of the maintenance of law and order to the Park of the princes) is implied. “We do not have anything, we start from zero”, coward a magistrate of the parquet floor of Paris, obviously perplexed. It knows that the investigations are announced difficult. With crucial questions: was the police officer directly threatened by the touched people? Why didn't it draw in the air? Did it carry or not an arm-band “ORGANIZES”? Can one estimate that it acted as situation of self-defence? Only certainty: several tens of people precipitated on him and wanted to attack it because of its color of skin. It is now more than one hour of the morning. On the floor of Mac C, the young police officer is questioned by a colleague of the IGS. He is there, the hands on the table, the lost glance, as carried by a drama which exceeds him. Outside, agitation fell down. The casualty of the Three Shells was evacuated towards a hospital. In the deposit of the RATP, the body of Mounir is covered with a white cover.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Carzy story! First I feel pain for the family of this fan.
But once again this is about the racists PSG's fans of Boulogne platform... (This doesn't happen everywhere in France and the majority of the PSG fans aren't like them!) There is a long time that something should have been done against some of the craziest ones but nothing was done at that time. However now there is a dead so let's hope somthing will be this time.
About the policeman he was a member of the brigade of the subway so I guess he wasn't prepared to that kind of situation in the contrary of the national policemen Les Gardiens de la Paix (Peace Keepers). Moreover, for that kind of match where the fuck were the special policemen called CRS (http://place-des-fetes.joueb.com/images/crs%20femme.jpg) who usually use flashballs!

[Chrisbobo]

And no one should give a gun to someone who doesn't know how to react in tense situations.


This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

Tense situations ????????

Alone against 100 NAZIS ? (NO I don't call them "FANS" when you are chasing someone to hurt or even kill him, when you shout "Dirty Nigger, Dirty Jew", I don't know another word to describe them)

WTF do you think those 100 guys would have done with their belts ???? Giving them to the jewish supporter as a welcome present ?????

This is not because you don't have a gun, that you can't kill someone. Especially when you are more than a hundred.

I am sure you would have done something better, with or without a gun.
Please don't teach that kind of lessons when you are comfortably sitting behind your computer.

Stop reading comics. Policemen are not superheros. And being a neo-nazi doesn't come without risks.

[Butterfly]

The only thing I would say is that it drives mad to think that someone died... Even fucking racists don't deserve to die!
However until the police procedure is not finished we shouldn't take definitive conclusions. But actually with the informations we've got, I think that the policeman of the brigade of the subway did what he could to save his life and the one of the Tel Aviv's fan.

We'll keep you inform of the police procedure.

[cartbran]

@Butterfly

Thanks for the story from L'Express. Extremely dramatic. Sounds like there really was not a lot of options for the police. I am sure he is highly traumatized by the incident and hope that he does not lose his job or is vilified on top of that. I looked through some French news sites and just realized how huge of a story this is in France. I just hope the police is able to move on from this. He saved a mans life. He also saved his own. Unfortunately he took one as well. It will be interesting to see if the PSG fans react with introspection or increased hostility to police. Will this be a wake up call or will this kid be a martyr?

[cavenaghi]

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

Tense situations ????????

Alone against 100 NAZIS ? (NO I don't call them "FANS" when you are chasing someone to hurt or even kill him, when you shout "Dirty Nigger, Dirty Jew", I don't know another word to describe them)

WTF do you think those 100 guys would have done with their belts ???? Giving them to the jewish supporter as a welcome present ?????

This is not because you don't have a gun, that you can't kill someone. Especially when you are more than a hundred.

I am sure you would have done something better, with or without a gun.
Please don't teach that kind of lessons when you are comfortably sitting behind your computer.

Stop reading comics. Policemen are not superheros. And being a neo-nazi doesn't come without risks.
I'm glad that I could have marked your life in any way :cool:

When there is a gun involved, chances to have a major incident are increasing dramaticaly. How many fights have happened near to the Parc des Princes? Plenty (I know that for a fact because I've been, not on purpose, into fights right there as a Marseille fan). How many dead? None! Why? Because first, those guys are cowards and once the police is there, they run; second, a gun has never been used!!!! So I would say that the cops know how to deal with those kinds of situation without using their guns.
Problem is that the guy was alone and no one understood that he was a cop. So the people weren't impressed. Now he shows his gun, that's perfectly understandable. But instead of firing in the air (to impress and to alert the other cops, and remember that they were very closed but not aware of the situation), he uses it on the people!
Fuck, he's trained!!! I'm not! If I have been in the same situation with a gun, I would have, maybe, shot in the air and then, certainly, on them. One less skinhead in the world, I don't care! But I'm not a cop, that's the reaction from a stupid guy like me. And I'm sorry but I do believe there are more and more stupid guys like me in the police and we give them a gun! And I'm sure this guy wasn't trained enough since he's only working in the subways.
The people in charge of the security of the stadium are experienced, and that's not the hazard if such an incident happened with a guy that wasn't part of the security.

And they were not 100 nazis. 3 or 4 nazis chased the jewish guy (like it happens too many times around there). Once the cop came in, the others (some of them were nazis but most were angry "fans") were attracted. And they were even more after the shot. What was at the beginning, unfortunately, a classic situation which should have resulted with no major incident like always, ended up with a gun involved, a dead man and another wounded.
I'm not telling what should have been done or anything, I'm just comparing this situation with all the past ones. And I think the differences can lead us to understand why we have a dead guy.
It doesn't change the main problem: some people following PSG games. Some of them are nazis, most are just fans enjoying football and violence.

[Butterfly]

I looked through some French news sites and just realized how huge of a story this is in France.

Indeed this is a big event and the chairman of PSG with the President of the French Football League did meet the Minister of National Security, Nicolas Sarkozy, about that!
About the article of L'Express, I think it's the best cause this is the story of a reporter who was there during the accident.

However, actually the press must deal with many things cause Sarkozy is the one who wants to be candidate for president of France next year. And seven monthes ago, he alrealdy said that he will solve the problem with the violent PSG fans... abviously more should have been done.
So as you can see, this a cocktail of racism, antisemitism, violence, politics and a dead man! Explosive stuff!

It will be interesting to see if the PSG fans react with introspection or increased hostility to police. Will this be a wake up call or will this kid be a martyr?

I'm afraid some of the PSG fans from the Boulogne platform aren't so intelligent as you could hope they would be in that kind of situation... The next game at Paris will be a tense one...


Edit : Indeed, Cavenaghi, there always used to be many problems between the PSG fans and the police! But usually it used to opposed the PSG fans and the CRS (http://place-des-fetes.joueb.com/images/crs%20femme.jpg) who know how to deal in that kind of situation. Here the problem is that the CRS weren't there... :(

[cavenaghi]

Edit : Indeed, Cavenaghi, there always used to be many problems between the PSG fans and the police! But usually it used to opposed the PSG fans and the CRS (http://place-des-fetes.joueb.com/images/crs%20femme.jpg) who know how to deal in that kind of situation. Here the problem is that the CRS weren't there... :(
I don't agree. I have a very close friend, a black guy, who had been chased by those kind of people when PSG went to the Parc to show the C2 trophee in 1996. He took some punches before the cops came. I can assure you he's not a PSG fan anymore.
And there always had been plenty of incidents (ratonnades) against jews, blacks, beurs... Always one guy against at least 5 people. Just look at the end of the article quoted in my first post. It's not something new. It happens too often.

[cartbran]

Problem is that the guy was alone and no one understood that he was a cop. So the people weren't impressed. Now he shows his gun, that's perfectly understandable. But instead of firing in the air (to impress and to alert the other cops, and remember that they were very closed but not aware of the situation), he uses it on the people!
I just don't understand this logic. The Tel Aviv fan was only being chased by 4-5 nazis who wanted to beat him and put him in the hospital, so that's ok. According to you, non-lethal violence is just a tolerable aspect of the are and there wasn't any problem until this black man showed up that no one knew was a cop and tried to rescue an Isreali. So, if the fans did not know he was a cop, it would have ok to have severely beaten him and the tel aviv supporter while making racist chants? I think everyone wishes that it did not end this way, but a shot was fired. It was not fired in the air, but it was fired. And how long did it even take for the firemen and police to arrive? This cop did nothing but try to do the right thing. He saw a mob trying to attack a man and he didn't stop and ask, well is he a supporter for the other team, because it is okay then. He just saw a man in trouble and tried to save him. In the process he could have been killed and now his life is turned upside down.

[dada]

Bottom line for me is the cop did what he could you. The fact that it has happened before doesnt mean it should be tolerated and officers should treat the situation any different. There are people attacking you, you have a firearm, you cannot control them..at that point I see no issue with him doing what he can to protect himself and whoever he was protecting. Also, at this point I see no reason to take into consideration the weelbeing of the attacker considering he isnt thinking of giving him a hug and a kiss either.

[Butterfly]

I don't agree. I have a very close friend, a black guy, who had been chased by those kind of people when PSG went to the Parc to show the C2 trophee in 1996. He took some punches before the cops came. I can assure you he's not a PSG fan anymore.
And there always had been plenty of incidents (ratonnades) against jews, blacks, beurs... Always one guy against at least 5 people. Just look at the end of the article quoted in my first post. It's not something new. It happens too often.

Yeah, I know the problem too cause I was in Paris (at Créteil) for 10 years. Usually the CRS dealed with the PSG fans but it happened that they couldn't be anywhere... so those kind of events always used to happen and most of the time the press didn't talk about it. However this time, all happened near Place de Saint Cloud where the violent fans always used to be!!! So how come did it take them 10 minutes to help the cop in McDonald :confused:

Edit : here is a map of Le Parc des Princes :

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/8235/20061124224751ka5.jpg

[cavenaghi]

I just don't understand this logic. The Tel Aviv fan was only being chased by 4-5 nazis who wanted to beat him and put him in the hospital, so that's ok. According to you, non-lethal violence is just a tolerable aspect of the are and there wasn't any problem until this black man showed up that no one knew was a cop and tried to rescue an Isreali. So, if the fans did not know he was a cop, it would have ok to have severely beaten him and the tel aviv supporter while making racist chants? I think everyone wishes that it did not end this way, but a shot was fired. It was not fired in the air, but it was fired. And how long did it even take for the firemen and police to arrive? This cop did nothing but try to do the right thing. He saw a mob trying to attack a man and he didn't stop and ask, well is he a supporter for the other team, because it is okay then. He just saw a man in trouble and tried to save him. In the process he could have been killed and now his life is turned upside down.
Is my english so bad? :D It's a complex subject and I may have some difficulties to make my point clear with my defficient vocabulary.
I'm just saying that, sadly, when you are a visitor fan you are taking a risk coming to the Parc. I regret it and I don't go there anymore but that is the situation. The non-action of the gov'ts and the PSG is the reason why it is so.
In these conditions, the cops have managed to avoid major incidents. Once again, this cop reacted the right way, considering his knowledge of this kind of situation. I simply think that a cop who is more often in contact with those people would have deal with the situation in a better way. Unfortunately, we will never know. And the guy had to deal with a situation he had never experienced before.
I'm not saying what is tolerable or not, I'm just noticing some elements which, I believe, are essential in the comprehension of the process leading to this death. And the fact that he wasn't clearly identify as a cop is more than important. Does it mean I'm saying it is OK to beat anyone who isn't a cop?

[cartbran]

Is my english so bad? :D It's a complex subject and I may have some difficulties to make my point clear with my defficient vocabulary.
I'm just saying that, sadly, when you are a visitor fan you are taking a risk coming to the Parc. I regret it and I don't go there anymore but that is the situation. The non-action of the gov'ts and the PSG is the reason why it is so.
In these conditions, the cops have managed to avoid major incidents. Once again, this cop reacted the right way, considering his knowledge of this kind of situation. I simply think that a cop who is more often in contact with those people would have deal with the situation in a better way. Unfortunately, we will never know. And the guy had to deal with a situation he had never experienced before.
I'm not saying what is tolerable or not, I'm just noticing some elements which, I believe, are essential in the comprehension of the process leading to this death. The fact that he wasn't clearly identify as a cop is more than important. Did I say it was OK to beat anyone who isn't a cop?
Oh, ok. Sorry;)

I agree mostly with you. I think my French may be a bit bad too, because I thought I read in the Le Monde editorial that the crowd knew he was a cop. Anyway, this is a bad situation for the police, the club and the government.

I can basically assume now that all young people in Paris believe that the police is their enemy. From the kids in the banlieus to the nazis. What a strange mix. Is if fair to blame this on Sarkozy? Are the police behaving more intimidating but doing nothing to stop crime, just provoking responses and anger?

I hope that the situation get defused before more violence erupts, because both the police and the PSG supporters and going to be nervous for a while.

[cavenaghi]

Is if fair to blame this on Sarkozy? Are the police behaving more intimidating but doing nothing to stop crime, just provoking responses and anger?
The problem with Sarkozy is that he considers that the police has just one role: put people in jail, period. He doesn't believe they also have a social mission, to prevent crime and not just to repress. And as all his policy is based on stupid numbers, he wants good statistics and puts the pressure on the cops. And as social actions are difficult to put into statistics... :rolleyes: So they put people in jail.
Sarkozy said one year ago that the violence in stadiums had to stop. So they made big publicity about 2 or 3 people arrested and then... nothing. He's an asshole who speaks a lot, saying he will change everything and not doing anything. He brings simplistic solutions to complex problems.
What did he said to people having difficulties to find their place in France: "France: Love it or leave it". Great! And this guy may become our future president :eek:
But if you ask me the alternative isn't much better...

So Sarkozy is a little bit guilty here cause he hasn't done anything (like always).

[il2]

will this kid be a martyr?

Only to the KOB and the independant, extreme right supporters.


I can basically assume now that all young people in Paris believe that the police is their enemy. From the kids in the banlieus to the nazis. What a strange mix. Is if fair to blame this on Sarkozy? Are the police behaving more intimidating but doing nothing to stop crime, just provoking responses and anger?

No, because that would obviously be taking it too far. However, it is true that the police has come under a lot of criticisms, and rightly so as cavenaghi points out, given the rising number of police abuses and more mediatised raids, which end up looking like blundering strongarmed tactics, rather than the reasonable application of force.

But no, I guarantee that you'll find a lot of young people who do appreciate the presence of the police, and even the CRS who have the worst image ("SS, CRS"). After all, the police are people and like civilians, they are rational human beings despite the clear presence of a police culture within the organisation. I, for one, was with a group of friends covering the CPE protests, and one night a phalanx of extreme right nazis ran through trying to beat up protestors. The CRS jumped right in (after 5 minutes :rolleyes: ) and we never heard from the counter-protesters again.

[zeratul]

I was at this game and I can say that the ambiance was really tense. Half of stadium was supporting Hapoel, or more precisely the Israeli team. It could be have been any Israeli team, it would be the same.
I'm in the Auteuil stand, near the visitor block. During the game, many provocations form both parts. People in Auteuil were exhibating flags of Lebanon, Palestine or Iran. On other sides, members of "Beitar group" (Israeli extreme right party) were provocating. At halftime, part of the stand was singing "Palestine, Palestine". Some dirty slogans like "Sales juifs" ou "mort aux juifs" were coming from Auteuil Rouge (lower part of the stand) who is known for not being racist or nazis, on the contrary. We know that the tensions between the Jewish community and the Arab one are increasing through many years.
At the end, I knew that something will happen, we could feel a really big tension and how the game was played doesn't help.
I wasn't on the place when the tragedy occured. but form what I read from boards and media, some facts are still to be cleared:
- a policeman don't have the right to panic. it's a kind of a profession like doctor, fireman or anyelse where you know that you have a human life in your hands.
- so the policeman was alone and tried to calm down the people. I'm not a policeman but I think that the first thing to do when you have a dangerous situation and you are alone i to call back ups. He only did that when he was refuged in the Mc Donald's after shooting people !!!! (according to L'Express) People knew he was a cop only when he used his radio in the McDo.
- he should have shot in the air and indentified himself as a cop dressed like civilian, other people already mentioned that.
- and last but not least: where the f*ck were the anti-riot units ??? at the beginning of the game, I saw many cars of CRS, riding horses policemen, etc... where were they at this time ? they didn't know that the situation was tense and a tragedy could occur ??

I don't underestimate the problems about the Parc des Princes, I know them even if I've never been include in that kind of situation. The problems are known for many years, the police knows them but let do. and now everybody is horrified and surprised. Typical French media and politics hypocrisy....

[Vip]

Thanx for the through readings ... had heard the news in a brief way only. :o


Now ... how about a rip of the game? For all the wrong reasons this match will be very famous. And maybe a rip of the aftermatch TV coverage relating to the incidents?

Maybe one of you guys knows of a French site/messageboard where to find footage? Thanx.

Peace.


.

[Butterfly]

SPOILERS!!! Highlights of the game (http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=4521335012716016037) (1'30)

Here is the News of TF1 channel (http://s.tf1.fr/FluxJt/jt13d25112006/jt13d25112006r02.asx) where you can see the hooligans breaking the windows of the McDonald (play it in WMP).

[acricketer]

Sounds like a societal problem beyond football. It continues to happen under the auspices of 'football' all over the world. It is tragic, pointless and disturbing.